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Thread: Open challenge to the SW community.

  1. #21
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    Actually if rankings and ladders are comming, I really think this issue is important. I love ladder and rankings for one reason, it attracts people like me, people that will do whatever to win, and that to me is awesome, but then the problem we are talking about here will be more glaring, it would be nice to find a real solution to this problem before these kind of players flood, break the system and walks away in deception, because that will happen.

  2. #22
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    Waterd, I'd like to try Bolvi against your Elien sometime. Be warned though, you are definitely more practiced at Elien than I am at Bolvi. I just want to see how you think this stalemate will arise.
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    Im with I like tau on this one!

  3. #23
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    TBH, I am equally surprised that the community doesn't accept that certain MUs aren't balanced nor fun, nor will they ever be, and we should just accept it. In terms of balance, they all involve Elien and Grog, and the fun factor is also only really bad with them. Elien and Grog slow down the game, make stalemates, and are downright unbalanced in a few MUs because of their events. It's true. Magic Drains, Burn events, and SotP (the last one being only a problem event in conjunction with the other two) make it so for Elien, and Freeze with some ridiculous stat lines does it for Grog. IMHO, the only solution we (as players who aren't capable of erratas, not that I would even if I had the chance) have is to just not really play them anymore. It's sad, but it's true. PE and TO players still have plenty of choices using the Alliances and SS, and still even using the units of Grog and Elien. I really am in favor of banning Elien and Grog. Not any of their units, which aren't problematic. Just the Summoners and events themselves - that's the problem. Especially if this game ever wants to be competitive - it's been established that turtling with Grog and especially Elien is quite possibly the most reliable and the hardest to beat strategy in the game.
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  4. #24
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    I don't think Grognack has to turtle to be effective though. With his high AVs and life totals he can push against a lot of the other turtling guys.* It may also be that he is so strong that he can get away with playing "wrong?" I don't know. I tend to push with Grognack, and think it would yield a winning ratio against Ret-Talus on iOS.

    It sounds like the more interesting question would be if I could beat Elien with an aggressive Grognack. Or the TO mirror. I won the TO mirror playing aggressive against glenn3e one time, but I don't think I could repeat that feat without similar amounts of luck. Let's try your Elien v. my Grognack on iOS.

    *I'm hesistant to push against assassination style decks with Grognack because he has no escape mechanism.
    Last edited by Jexik; 09-17-2014 at 09:20 PM.

  5. #25
    killercactus is offline SW App Champion Summer 2015, but still do what he says.
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    When I said there were no broken matchups, I was referring to when neither player decides to stop playing. If both players just "play", and don't turtle, all the matchups are fine, and the better player still wins the majority of games.

    You may say I'm the better player, but I'm not strong against turtles, and you're good at it. Plus, if I win more games because I'm better than you, what have we proven? I think matchups need reversed just to try and minimize that.
    Last edited by killercactus; 09-17-2014 at 09:26 PM.
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  6. #26
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    I think matchups need reversed just to try and minimize that.
    UoS and I have learned that a bit in MUotW games. Players skills is a huge factor in how the game plays out for a faction. WHen I'm playing my terrible Selundar the Bolvi player has a much better chance then if UoS what at Bolvi

  7. #27
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    Jexik i send an invitation if you want to open more games at the same time, do so.

    Your grog vs Ret comment is interesting. And is the reason why if you attack with grog and win, it doesnīt mean much if you canīt attack with ret and win. For that reason if you were going to propose that matchup i would claim i play grognack, and you play ret. Though we can play it both ways.

    KC: It really doesnīt follow, specially in the context we were talking about, I was in the context you said that, talking about how when both players try to win, that is maximize their EV, both should try for the other to act first, and i call that broken.

    We wonīt know EXACTLY why you won, unless its a mirror (and yet there is certain thing of variance.) The truth is that to make definitive conclusion is impossible one way or another, that much is truth, I and others, i think would be happy enough for me, a pretty experienced defensive player to lose vs an aggressive player even if there is difference in skill, i would say regardless if the problem still exist or not, that even if the problem really exist, is small enough that can be mostly ignored for now.

    Again I donīt have problem playing any kind of matchup in whatever way you want. I was just making a comment of the value of that information. Actually yes, if my claim is true, the attacker should be losing playing EITHER side. IF the attacker or the defender has a positive win ratio only with one side then the results can be attribute to summoner power, matchup unbalance or player comfort with the summoners. All this just ignoring variance of course.

    So if a player loss with one side and win the other, only a bo7 wonīt serve of much. If a player though wins attacking with both sides or defending with both sides, then the information becomes more relevant.
    I donīt pretend this to be Ļdefintiive proofĻ to either side, we do not have the manpower to do that.

    But I will say this, defending having advantage on both sides in a game without inevitability is so ĻunhealthyĻ for the matchup that there is even reasonable doubt that acting is better than non acting that itīs a bad situation.

    However, I think if i lose vs attackers in bo7, there is enough evidence that attacking is good, we could declare that attacking/acting has an advantage over not doing it. Of course maybe in the future someone stronger than me can appear and beat everyone by creating clock wars and defending. But Right now im the strongest ĻdefendantĻ of the theory so itīs my job to present my ĻargumentsĻ the best way i can.

  8. #28
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    Well, that didn't go well. Aggro Grognack goes 0-4. In a couple of the games I think I was doing a good job of pressuring, and then BAM! he drew the wall he needed. I also mismanaged my magic a lot. I only got all three champions out in 1 or 2 games. My Wild Swings and Furies didn't hit when I wanted. In one game I also did some weird stuff to play around hitting my own Grognack with WS and I didn't get it anyway...

    I'm not trying to make excuses, just saying that I think it is an uphill battle in this match-up if you commit to full offense.
    Last edited by Jexik; 09-18-2014 at 02:25 AM.

  9. #29
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    Jexik do you want to play the other side of the matchup? you play Ellien and i play grog? Remember you donīt have to attack me really as long as you donīt play in a way that if you keep doing that we are going to get to turn 100, itīs valid.

    Btw I kept my wall in hand la few of those games, Walls are op.
    Imo the strat of using krung to ping my wall that you used in one game is very bad, if you are going to do that, is better to do it with a thwarter. Warrior vs thwarter only get something like 0.4 Mana EV advantage! And im not sure how to calculate it but you get something like 2 damage on average per thwarter, so i get 0.4 mana, and you get 2 wall damage, so by the cost of around 2 mana, you basically destroy me a wall, not really bad.

    The problem is i will get eventually a firedrake and ping your thwarter.
    Still way way way better than pinging with krung.

    In fact that is the strat i use in many matchups to attack with grog, i place a thwarter in front of your wall ,and most summoners reaction to that are terrible. Thatīs also why now consider Grog vs Abua not a stalemate, grog doing that gets a lot of advantage, so abua needs to play in a way in which that is not great.
    However vs Ellien because warriors and firedrakes itīs not good enough.
    Last edited by Waterd; 09-18-2014 at 02:39 AM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterd View Post
    Jexik do you want to play the other side of the matchup? you play Ellien and i play grog? Remember you donīt have to attack me really as long as you donīt play in a way that if you keep doing that we are going to get to turn 100, itīs valid.
    I don't play a whole lot of Elien; just two games on iOS, both in the spring tournament. I think the deck I have is pretty bad. Maybe in a day or two. If I send you an invite, that's what it's for.

    Btw I kept my wall in hand la few of those games, Walls are op.
    Or Burns + SotP on Laleya. Man, that's annoying.

    A couple times I left walls at just 1 or 2 hp but couldn't spare the attack. That was bad. I also think I might want fewer Shamans and more Thwarters to deal with Warriors and getting those last hits on stuff.

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