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Thread: Alliance Previews....

  1. #381
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    Maldaria and Sirian certainly don't stick to defense, so I have to disagree with your argument Joseph. That, and firelings can be really good sometimes.

    But your larger point about the players sticking to what they know is very true, and I think it explains a lot of things. I think that's the best phrased argument I've seen for getting Playdek to get their act together with iOS or actually promote VASSAL play.

    I know it's a bit off topic, but I honestly think the current iOS does more harm than good in the long run. I've read about a lot of people quitting SW because of the iOS metagame essentially, and from the few games I've played on there, it seems a lot of players aren't even playing terribly good turtle decks, they're just copying what they've seen work and avoiding taking any educational risks.

  2. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
    His ability alone promotes turtling. It doesn't matter what his events are, I can already safely say that turtling with iElien can be a very good strategy simply by merit of his ability.

    Harbringers themslevs aren't cheap and make big targets, and firelings suck. Fencers are horrible units on offense, much better on defense.

    And also, iElien being able to play defense means that it doesn't matter if his events promote offense. PE and FK players are used to playing defense, so they will stick with what they are comfortable with. It's something I have observed in several other games, I see no reason why it would change. Think about it form the viewpoint of a less experienced player. Do you take a huge risk, likely losing a lot of games, by drastically altering your strategy? Or do you stick with what you are comfortable doing? I'm talking about the meta here, not home games. Plus, even if the events promote offense, that means it is guaranteed to be more complicated than turtling iElien, who simply summons a champ and boosts it. Do you think less experienced players will take the complicated way to winning or the simple way to winning?
    Just because iElien is the FP summoner doesnt mean he will automatically attract Ret, Sirian, Elien, or Maldaria players. With second summoners I think players identify less by factions and more by summoners themselves. Then, as UoS said, Sirian and Maldaria can easily be offensive summoners. I love Sneeks, dont care much for Frick. Dont really like Abua, quite like Nikuya

    The reason Elien and Ret are defensive is because of their events, not their abilities. Primarily events like Magic Drain and Forced Summon. Nothing about Eliens Will limits suggests he will be defensive or offensive. To be a defensive champ heavy summoner requires turtly events like Magic Drain and Forced Summon. If iElien is given the FP version of Goblin Rage/Goblin Horde Attack then it'll be obvious to me he should be an offensive, common based summoner.

    And Firelings are awesome. Fencers can easily be offensive. Their cheap, can crowd walls, and can punish an opponent for trying to get them off walls.

  3. #383

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
    Do you take a huge risk, likely losing a lot of games, by drastically altering your strategy? Or do you stick with what you are comfortable doing? I'm talking about the meta here, not home games.
    I don't really agree with this argument. Regarding meta, I would say two things:

    1. It doesn't take a lot of players to change a meta-game. Any one guy showing off a new build that works very well at a tournament is going to be copied very quickly.

    2. There are some competitive players that try to disrupt the meta by bringing new ideas to the table. They are a minority, but remember point 1: it only takes a few to demonstrate a good strategy.

    Whether or not iElien ends up being a good offensive summoner remains to be seen, though. I'm so looking forward to the next previews!

  4. #384
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    Sitnam, you make good points about the archers. I hope you took my last comment as being sincere, I.e. Not a putdown. My beef with skellies has always been having to pay two magic for raise the dead for a one magic unit, or summoning them for one magic to dark sacrifice and then they not return to my own magic pile. They are good for elut bul but I prefer phantoms in the event I could try and steal a champ.

    If nothing else I'm glad to know others reasoning for playing them because I'm always surprused when they show up on someone else's side of the board.

    Going back to the new units, I could see the risen warriors being a big asset for ret once his champs are out and summoning them through legions of the dead, then using the hellfire to jump behind elut or skhull.

  5. #385
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    Do we have a release date or a rough idea of when it's coming out?
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  6. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hogg View Post
    Do we have a release date or a rough idea of when it's coming out?
    I would say 11 weeks as that's probably when the previews will be done. But that's just a guess. But what do I know? I don't even have a title.
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  7. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hogg View Post
    Do we have a release date or a rough idea of when it's coming out?
    Didn't someone say it was slated for Halloween?
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  8. #388
    killercactus is offline SW App Champion Summer 2015, but still do what he says.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
    Didn't someone say it was slated for Halloween?
    The box video said October.

    Here's the thing - if IElien sits back with 1/2 guys out and spends a bunch on will:

    1) what happens when those 2 guys die and you don't have magic to summon anything else?

    2) he does have 4 life, so he's gonna need blockers. It's tough to afford them when you're spending on Will.

    All of my experience suggests that he plays pretty offensively. His events are kind of situational, but I don't think any really promote a turtle strategy. Also, he has a lot of common - promoting cards in his deck. Between those cards, the power of Burning Skeletons and Elien's Will, I've always felt he's better attacking. I guess you could build all the common stuff and try to go champ heavy, but I think regular Elien or even Ret is better at that.
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  9. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by killercactus View Post
    The box video said October.

    Here's the thing - if IElien sits back with 1/2 guys out and spends a bunch on will:

    1) what happens when those 2 guys die and you don't have magic to summon anything else?

    2) he does have 4 life, so he's gonna need blockers. It's tough to afford them when you're spending on Will.

    All of my experience suggests that he plays pretty offensively. His events are kind of situational, but I don't think any really promote a turtle strategy. Also, he has a lot of common - promoting cards in his deck. Between those cards, the power of Burning Skeletons and Elien's Will, I've always felt he's better attacking. I guess you could build all the common stuff and try to go champ heavy, but I think regular Elien or even Ret is better at that.
    KC, when was the last time you actually ever did the boring turtle strategy with any summoner? Maybe excluding tournaments, a long time, no? That will probably be the same for many of the playtesters - they are all experienced veterans who are beyond doing the boring turtle strategy. I'm not talking about you guys. You guys will do offense with any deck. I'm talking about less experienced players, new players. They will stick with what they know. Call me crazy, but I've observed it happening in this game and others. If you give new players a choice between offense and defense, and both are equally viable, they will go defense. They will also try to go champ heavy, because that is much easier, safer, and they know how. Champ heavy defense is boring turtle play. So far, you guys have done a great job of not doing that. Nikuya Na, for example could certainly play defense. But the benefits of being aggressive with poison are apparent to all and pay off well. I just already see decks burning through their commons and all to get out the champions and boost dice.
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  10. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
    KC, when was the last time you actually ever did the boring turtle strategy with any summoner? Maybe excluding tournaments, a long time, no? That will probably be the same for many of the playtesters - they are all experienced veterans who are beyond doing the boring turtle strategy. I'm not talking about you guys. You guys will do offense with any deck. I'm talking about less experienced players, new players. They will stick with what they know. Call me crazy, but I've observed it happening in this game and others. If you give new players a choice between offense and defense, and both are equally viable, they will go defense. They will also try to go champ heavy, because that is much easier, safer, and they know how. Champ heavy defense is boring turtle play. So far, you guys have done a great job of not doing that. Nikuya Na, for example could certainly play defense. But the benefits of being aggressive with poison are apparent to all and pay off well. I just already see decks burning through their commons and all to get out the champions and boost dice.
    Going defensive with these guys doesn't work at all. Unlike with Prince Elien you have no surety of dice ever. You're forced to rely on your Commons to do the heavy lifting of Magic, and there is no easy way to obtain it even if you deckbuild. Elien's Will costs too much magic to let things go until the end game, and only one event I could truly consider "defensive", and is easily blocked by wall crowding. The entire deck relies on you having a steady 3-4 magic on top of what you need and Champions are merely a means to an end.

    And btw, if you go champ heavy with this base deck, be prepared to not summon all three Champions reliably. If you deckbuild around it you're going to lose your use of your Events as they are specialized. It is entirely possible to build a defensive Immortal Elien deck, but it will be weaker than Ret-Talus; I assure you. Especially when you see how much these Champions help Ret-Talus more than they help Immortal Elien.
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