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Thread: Avan Variant

  1. #1
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    Default Avan Variant

    This a variant I think would make games better than current with less stalemate and and hopefully more aggressive games.
    Also To make changes that would lead to more balanced matchups in general, regardless of the Summoners involved.
    I want to polish the rules of the variant.

    The purpose of this thread is to throw ideas to improve the variant and to name the flaws in the rules I propose and keep updating the first post as discussing and improvement follows.

    The other pages are just to keep track of rules Ive tested or plan to test.

    So into the variant.

    Version 9.0

    Rulesets
    Live:

    Gameplay rules
    1.
    -"At the end of the attack phase, if you didnīt perform an attack targeting an enemy card, place a wound marker on a standard wall you control or your summoner"

    2.
    -"When a standard wall gets destroyed, all opponents of the controller of that wall place the top three cards of their discard pile on top of their magic piles"

    3.
    -"Standard walls can't be placed adjacent to enemy cards".

    4.
    -"When a unit is destroyed as result of a friendly attack, the unit gets discarded instead of going to any magic pile".

    5.
    -"During the build magic phase, now players can only build 3 magic max per turn"

    6.
    -"Players start with 5 cards in hand. The starting player, can only do 2 movements, 2 attacks, and can only build 2 magic."

    7.
    -"Ice walls and Vine walls, canīt be affected by Events and abilities an opponent controls."

    8.
    -"When an upgraded unit is destroyed, the upgrade card is placed in the discard pile of the owner of the unit"

    9.
    -"If a mutated unit would be destroyed as a result of a new mutation having less life points than the amount of wound markers already present in the unit, discard both the mutation and the unit"

    10.
    -"Units with Boost ability can be boosted at any time during the summoning phase"


    ----------------------------------------------
    Ios:
    Gameplay rules
    - When the game reaches turn 31 The game ends, and a winner will be declared based on the following conditions and tiebreakers in order:
    * Higher number of standard walls

    * Lowest number of wounds in standard walls
    * Lowest amount of wounds in summoner
    * Active player wins.
    Last edited by Waterd; 04-16-2018 at 05:17 PM.

  2. #2
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    Talk about different rules, whether they are currently part of the variant, where part of the variant, or are consideration for the variant. Now grouped in different groups by intention.

    ****
    ANTI STALEMATE RULES

    If at the end of a player turn, no attack was made, no mark wounds were added, no hand was modified and no card left the board. That player loses the game. If a player has no more cards on his draw pile, that player won't lose the game this way if his summoner is at least 1 space closer to the opponent summoner.
    Iīm not really fan of this rule because itīs long and it feels inorganic, but for some reason is one that gets more acceptance because how little intrusion it has to normal play also can be used on IOS which is a big plus.

    At the draw phase, a player that doesn't draw a card, must place a wound marker on a summoner or wall he controls

    I'm really liking this rule for two reasons. One is that is the shortest and simpler rule I've tried so far. I like that. Second is that it basically applies some of the effects of sluggish wall, without some of it's problems. Now attacking walls is important, EVEN on defensive vs defensive matchups. Third. It creates an interesting dynamic in those matchups. Where trying to sneak damage to damage walls, does put you closer to victory.
    My only problem is that Bolvi vs Bolvi still may end in stalemate.
    At first I didn't like this idea of rule because it's one of the most intrusive to gameplay. But I'm pretty convinced right now that is totally worth it.

    If you don't attack or add a wound marker to a card this turn, you lose the game


    This works in IOS, which makes it appealing. It may be a little too brutal tough.

    At the end of turn, if you didn't place a wound marker, place one wound marker on a wall or summoner you control

    There are variations of this, one is that you do this for EACH wall you control, which has the additional value of forcing players that go 3 walls to be more offensive, but it makes the rule less elegant. Another variant is that you can only do it on walls with only 1 life or that if you kill a wall this way you do not get the mana. The idea is for a player to not use this rule to it's advantage, but at the cost of making it less elegant.

    FAVOR AGRESSIVE STRATEGIES

    Normal walls canīt be placed on edges of the board or adjacent to other units.
    I really like this rule, however is very intrusive and the effect is not that big.

    Normal walls are now sluggish.
    Itīs really good it has but it creates some rules problems and not drawing a wall in the the first 15 cards may be too brutal in some matchups, Also Na can one shoot walls

    If you start turn with a unit on the opponent side of the board, you can move a unit from your discard pile to your magic pile
    Never tried it.

    If a player starts the turn with a unit or standard wall on each of the 4 center squares, he wins the game.

    Intended effect: Make games more aggressive.

    I'm just thinkering about it and with variations, like maybe not the 4 in the center, maybe just with 3 corners..not sure yet.
    Another possibility is to just start with a unit in each of the 4 quarters of the map.


    HELP COMMONS

    On the build magic phase, a player may choose up to 3/4 cards from his hand and put them on the magic pile (this is instead players be allowed to use put any number of cards)

    Intended effect: Make commons more relevant. The more I'm playing even my variant, the more players just dump their hands to rush for a champ. Now going for a champ requires a sacrifice since it means not using mana for a few turns.

    Destroying a friendly unit during the attack phase makes them go to discard pile instead of magic pile

    Intended effect: Avoid the common friendly slaughter that happen in early games, and avoid some easy decision mid/late about killing your own units
    My problem with this rule is that I noticed that in some matchups, going first is a big disadvantage if you can't kill your own units to get at least one mana. Going first, means you draw second. and if you do not have at least 1 mana to compensate drawing second is a big problem in some matchups. (an alternative is instead of going to discard pile, they always to to an opponent magic pile)

    Note this rule already exist for conjurations.

    All cue's now replace the word "units" with the word " Champion"
    I really like this, the problem is that it means contradicting text on the cards, even if it's only just one word.

    At the draw phase you can draw up a number of cards equal 1+The number of standard walls your opponent controls, you cant draw more cards if you already have 5 cards in hand

    BALANCE

    You can only play mercenaries on mercenaries deck

    My experience with mercenaries is that grossly benefit some decks, also defensive decks are the one that benefit more. Be either Vermin or Stone golems to fill defensive gaps, specially vs commons. Khan queso (similar reasons).
    Defensive decks packing rune mages and etch to beat other defensive decks by being more defensive, or using their defensive tools to protect etch or punish any offensive walling.
    The decks that benefit the most from mercenaries are the defensive ones that plan to use defensive strats.
    Another reason I'm ok with this change is that mercenaries causes some problem in live play (force you to use opaque sleeves), Also it makes harder for people to get the cards to build optimal decks (though most great mercenaries are in mercenary decks)
    But all that is just imo positive effect, the main thing is that the purpose of this variant is to encourage aggression and as i said most mercenaries do the exact opposite.

    Commons number are limited to the released amount:

    Intended effect: Make deckbuilding more interesting and easier to get the cards.

    Ok this one is the least related to the variants goals, but yet I think it's important. First it adds more interesting decisions in deckbuilding (instad of just packing your two best commons, 10x and etc.) And creating more decisions in gameplay (when you have 10X of your best common is not a decision of burn it as magic or not).
    The other side is that I feel terrible that in real life to have the Shadow elf deck that i want, I need to get a second master set Or trade cards when most people do not want to trade the good cards. Of course what i do with my set is I use proxies, because I refuse to buy 2 master sets just to get the 4 swordman i want, when I already have everthing summoner wars. Also I'm thinkinering more on promoting live tournaments on my city. If i keep the 10 card rule, i 100% definitly need to allow proxies and promote that. I prefer to just allow people , and let them know that if they want to play phoenix elves, if he buys the 3 decks with pe cards, he is gonna have everthing he needs for any possible PE deck, and not have to buy Ellien and reinfocments twice, to get the extra Warriors and firebeast he needs

    9. Summoner are not units. When a card refers to units, it isn't refering to summoners. Factions that have one card text changed because of this:

    Cave goblins:
    Goblin invicibility: Now where it says "A Cave goblin unit that you control" it says "A cave goblin unit that you control or your summoner"

    Vlox:
    Master of art: A new line added "The opponent summoner counts as a unit for the the purposes of your events and abilities"

    Mountain Vargath:
    Brute: "After wounding a unit" becomes "After wounding a unit or summoner"

    Mercenaries:
    Urick: "After wounding a unit" becomes "after wounding a unit or summoner"

    The idea of this rule was to soft the power of some really powerfull effects, mainly kynder to be honest. But I guess itīs simpler, if the time comes, to just ban kynder.

    GENERAL

    The Draw phase is moved before the build phase, instead of the start of the turn.

    Intended effect: Increment mind games

    Right now I feel that summoner wars doesn't have as much mind games as I would like in a tactical game. This would increment mind games by forcing you to pick the cards you can play next turn, and so you have to predict what the opponent is gonna do next turn, incrementing the number of mindgames out there.

    At the start of the game you can choose X cards from your deck (who knows what X is) and put them on top of the library/hand (to reduce early game variance, specially to allow the 3 card as mana per turn by allowing to get a wall in hand if you want)

    Intended Effect: Variants of these rules have come and gone, mostly to solve some problems some combinations of other rules created, but also to reduce draw variance.
    Last edited by Waterd; 10-02-2014 at 04:22 PM.

  3. #3
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    Tier list for Basic set of rules of the variant (orderer from left to right inside tiers)

    Tier A: Krusk, Rallul
    Tier B: Oldin, Torgan, Grognack, Abua, Deep dwarves, Filth, Ellien, Maldaria, Vlox
    Tier C: Benders, Sam, Mountain vargath, Sneeks, Frick, Mad sirian, Swamp orcs, Sera, Bolvi, Ret talus
    Tier D: Selundar

    For comparision tier list of regular game

    Tier S: Tundle
    Tier A: Filth, Rallul, Benders, Grognack, Nikuya-NA.
    Tier B: Swamp orcs, Krusk,
    Tier C: Phoenix elves-Ellien, Guild Dwarves-Oldin, Phoenix elves-Maldaria,
    Tier D: Vlox, Guild dwarves-Bolvi, Vanguards - Sera, Fallen kingdom-Ret-talus, Vanguards - Sam, Tundra Orcs-Torgan, Fallen Kingdom - Sirian, Cave Goblins-Fricks, Mountain vargath, Jungle elves, Cave Goblins-Sneeks,
    Tier E: Selundar.
    Last edited by Waterd; 10-02-2014 at 04:22 PM.

  4. #4
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    I don't like 1 or 2. Way too limiting. Buts that's me. Now the other two, ruin the game. I know you say you have played sluggish walls and it works out fine. I'm calling your bluff there. I've played it a million times, and only with the most perfect of draws does this do anything remotely close to good for the game. And limiting commons, that does have some good. Which is horribly outweighed by the bad. There are so many units that you need more of for a certain build. The most obvious are Lioneers and Thieves, which you have just nerfed in a major way.

    Oh, and sluggish walls, in games where it doesn't end everything in a blowout, cuase oober defensive games due to the fact its suicude to ppace walls aggresively.
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  5. #5
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    This is what will happen: Now I can't put more Priests or Stalwart Archers in my deck to make that strategy work and sluggish Walls ruins the Vanguards matchups (versus the CG for e.g.). Also, Cloaks are nerfed miserably which is all they need since I can't put more Thieves into the deck. Meanwhile, everyone is going to take Guild Dwarves and mass Wall destruction.

    Your ideas break even more matchups than they fix. I suggest you address those broken matchups due to your alternate rulings first rather than coming up with even more rulings that muddle the game further. If your rulings can fix them, then maybe your ideas have some merit. Here's a list of a few off the top of my head:

    VG vs everyone (nerfed)
    CL vs everyone (nerfed)
    MV vs everyone (buffed vs their even matchups)
    CG vs everyone (buffed vs their even matchups)
    GD vs everyone (buffed against everyone)
    SO vs everyone (buffed against everyone)
    Merc vs everyone (buffed against everyone)


    If at end of turn a player didn't put a wound marker, he must put a wound marker on a wall or summoner he controls
    I'd say that's the only rule I'd keep, that doesn't SEEM to break anything. Except I'd change it to also take into account ATTACKS, since its possible to roll all misses and then take a wound on your Walls for no apparent reason.
    Last edited by glenn3e; 09-17-2013 at 05:47 PM.

  6. #6
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    Sluggish walls:
    I didn't play sluggish walls, I KEEP playing with sluggish walls. I do play my variant, and that's why i modify it periodically, because I find ways to improve it based on my games. Sluggish wall is not a problem, and people that claimed it was a problem, failed to convince me it is. So I know your opinion, but all I can say until someone starts to get 60% win ratio with any of the claimed matchup problem vs me (in to be honest it's pretty open, since they maybe can get 60% win ratio even without sluggish walls). BUT AT LEAST until then, I can't even start considering it's a problem, when I do not have them. And In fact is there to make CG and MV stronger, where I consider among the 2 weakest side in the game right now.
    glenn3e point on guild dwarves was presented many many times, and I appreciate the concern, but again and again, people have failed to beat me with them with sluggish walls. If you think they weren't good enough you are invited to me play me in vassal Bo9 or at least bo5, to show your point. But I can only work with the information I have, Ive failed to see GD, even close to the best side with these rules (and even if it were the best side it wouldn't be a problem, since a side has to be the best, but they are not even close to being the best side).

    On the common rule: I kind of agree and also disagree. I already talk how to me is bad that making full decks require you buying 2x of the same set.
    But also on the building , yes it shut down some strategies, but it also make some deckbuildings more interesting. Many sides is just 10x of the best unit, and will generally overshadow every other unit or strat. The best example is ellien 10x warrior.

    Yes, some sides do not have this op unit that you want to 10x, like vanguard, but they get BUFFED by this, they do because now many strong sides, that are strong thanks to be able to 10x their best unit, won't be able to. While you could claim 10x archer or 10 priest is viable and good. I would argue that the best VG builds do not use those. You can check my VG build in the turltlemania 2 tournament, which is closer to what i consider the best VG build. Though that may change with sam, since I think i want 10 brothers.
    To me ideally, the limit should be 8, and PHG should sell individual packs or release a pack with all the needed commons to reach limit. But until that happens, I do not want to be forced to buy 2 packs of every deck if i want them to be the optimal build.

    About the sides what it think:

    VG, get buffed:
    One of the few that can play defensivly most matchups thanks to the wound marker rule, common rule and mercenary rule weaken many of his worst matchups

    CL No idea: I do not understand cloacks, but it may be they got nerfed, mercenary rule should benefit them, but common rule and specially sluggish walls can be a problem

    MV Buffs: Yes, intended. I don't know what even matchups was buffed, but MV has few even matchups, most are bad. Great part of the sluggish wall buff was to make MV stronger.

    CG Buffs: Yes super agree, this is the MAIN reason of sluggish wall, make CG stronger, they had almost no positive matchups (Except MV). so intended

    Oldin buffed: But not much, the buff comes mostly from the mercenary rule, since it helped many of the hard matchup, but also the wound mark rule is bad for them, since oldin is pretty bad to attack. The sluggish wall goes both ways, yes now the engineer and ballistar are not super terrible, and besiege the wall becomes a playable event. (not bad things if you ask me), but now they have even more problems defending.

    SO MEGANERFED: So without apprentice mage, I will end there.

    Merc buffed: Yes and intended.


    May main problem is that I can't think of someway to nerf krusk. which makes me sad. And since I'm nerfing with these rules the other very strong sides (SO, BE, Grog), they are gonna to stand out as the OP side.

    EDIT: I want to point out that despite I disagree with your points, doesn't mean I do not appreciate that you bring your concerns. I thank you for that.
    Last edited by Waterd; 09-17-2013 at 06:12 PM.

  7. #7
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    Okay, I'll bite. I'll take mega overpowered Guild Dwarves with Sluggish Walls. I'll adhere to the no Mercenary rule. You claim that Vanguards will not be ruined in this matchup, so take them. We play 3 games on Vassal. I go by the same name in Vassal as here.

  8. #8
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    All factions are fine as is. All rules are fine as is. Every rule you have, at best, does pretty much nothing to the game. At worst, they break the game horribly. If GD haven't been completely busted in your games, sorry, but you and no one you play with knows anything about playing wall destruction.
    Marek is LOVE. Marek is LIFE.

    3 rules of SW:

    1. Marek is perfect.

    2. Marek is the best Summoner ever.

    3. Marek will troll the everliving crap out of you.

    "If you can't blow them away with your brilliance, baffle them with your bullshit." -Marek (probably).
    Member of the unofficial PHG debate team. (Officially endorsed by Marek.)

  9. #9
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    Gleen im online now, but tell me when you are gonna be online my tiem free is 10 PM to 2 AM from Monday to Saturday and Sunday all day.

    You can choose all 4 rules together, OR only sluggish wall, but not 2 yes and 2 not.

    I want to notice that GD has advantage over VG in normal rules, noticeably so. But I will take the matchup because I really want to play.

    Also I don't like the "i'll bite" this is a cooperation, I hope we both want the same, I'm not setting up any kind of trap here. nor wish do so.
    Last edited by Waterd; 09-17-2013 at 07:17 PM.

  10. #10
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    I'm in now. And I don't know what time it is in your timezone, but its 8 am here and I just finished a 12 hour night shift so I don't have much time.

    Also, the point of this is for me to prove that GD is overpowered with the Sluggish Walls ruling so I will take them to prove that the poor VG will be nerfed in this matchup.
    Last edited by glenn3e; 09-17-2013 at 07:54 PM.

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