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Thread: Let's talk Mad Sirian...

  1. #21
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    I'd like to put my side of the arguement in here. A wound on MSW is worth 3 magic, because of Warlocks. This means that each attack from Gull-Dass has a 60% chance of causing 3 magic damage. That's 1.8 magic on average per attack. How many attacks does the SSSCF count when deciding? Look at Malevolence. She's average for a merc early on, which means one overcosted, making her cost if she was in a faction 6. 4+7-3=8, meaning her ability is a -2. With 5 life, she is expected to attack twice. Gull-Dass has 7 life, but even if he dies as fast as Male (or is pickier about his targets, which Male can be too as attacking a 1 life common can be wasteful for her), he loses 3.6 magic on average from wounds in MSW. Dass's SSSCF is 4+7-3-3.6 then, which is 4.4. Yes, he gains some against Sam, or for one turn against other factions when they use things like GI or CoS, but I don't think that minor detail is a +.6 to make him worth it. Elut can do the same, and doesn't have to be pickier about his targets. Plus you can make him cheaper, and recycle zombies (Zombies go great with MSW, as UE has shown me by beating me with them).
    Relax and enjoy your shoes.

    I LIKE TAU! is Oldin the Boring in The 12 Masks of the Summoner
    I LIKE TAU! was Blur the Scholar in The Great Marsh. Life. Don't talk to me about life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterd View Post
    Im with I like tau on this one!

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by I LIKE TAU! View Post
    I'd like to put my side of the arguement in here. A wound on MSW is worth 3 magic, because of Warlocks.
    This is a bit of an accounting trick, as I pointed out. You do not get a Warlock for the price of a wound on MSW. You get a Warlock for the price of a wound on MSW AND 1 magic, because otherwise you build the Warlock card.

    When comparing Warlocks to other commons that's baked into the cake because it's true of any common you summon. But if you're comparing a Stolen Life wound to a Blood for Blood wound, it's not, because Blood for Blood wounds do not consume a card. So, after correcting this, the wound costs only 2 magic, because the Blood For Blood wound comes with a 1-magic bonus: the Warlock that you now build because you're not summoning it.

    Also, as I've pointed out to you before, while Warlocks cost 3, they are a very weak 3-coster. When they are on the board they have no power. This isn't really relevant most of the time because it's so rare to actually pay the 3 magic (either in MSW or in Ret-Talus) - which is why Warlocks are so great for them. But if you are using them as an accounting measure, rather than considering their (mostly irrelevant) listed cost, you really should drop it to 2.5 or so.

    Quote Originally Posted by I LIKE TAU! View Post
    This means that each attack from Gull-Dass has a 60% chance of causing 3 magic damage. That's 1.8 magic on average per attack.
    After my correction, it's a 60% chance of about 1.5 magic damage. That's .9 magic on average per attack - unless you're attacking one of the many things that reduce hit probability, in which case the cost is lower.

    But even at that .9 magic level, you can see that it's pretty much the same hit as Malevolence - but GD is 2 magic cheaper for the same stat line.

    Alternatively, we can use the general SW-wide standard (Forced Summon, Spirit of the Lizard, etc) of 2 magic per summoner wound, which I think applies perfectly well to Mad Sirian. In that case Blood For Blood carries a cost (assuming no Shield of Light, et al) of 1.2 magic per attack. This seems fair and accurate to me. But even then, he wins the comparison to Malevolence.
    Last edited by dok; 07-09-2014 at 12:09 PM.

  3. #23
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    But if you just summon the warlock, you get it for 3 magic + one magic for the card. Using Sirian's ability gets rid of the 3 magic cost. So that means the wound is still worth the 3 magic there. I'm not sure I completely agree about Warlocks being 2.5 either. Plus, sometimes there are other things you can wound MSW for besides warlocks and want to, which makes that worth even more then. So I'd put it closer to 3 than 2.5. With the summon cost, 2.5 means he's right on SSCF, assuming the detriment is only counted for 2 attacks, like Malevolence, when he's really probably worth 3 attacks, since he has about a 50% increase in life.
    Relax and enjoy your shoes.

    I LIKE TAU! is Oldin the Boring in The 12 Masks of the Summoner
    I LIKE TAU! was Blur the Scholar in The Great Marsh. Life. Don't talk to me about life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterd View Post
    Im with I like tau on this one!

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by I LIKE TAU! View Post
    (Zombies go great with MSW, as UE has shown me by beating me with them).
    Are they? I hardly see the point of them without dark sacrifice.
    Olivier
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  5. #25
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    Forbidden Ritual. 2 or even 3 attack zombie chains. It's killer. Plus, all the ones that are infected that turn don't get the wound from it I think.
    Relax and enjoy your shoes.

    I LIKE TAU! is Oldin the Boring in The 12 Masks of the Summoner
    I LIKE TAU! was Blur the Scholar in The Great Marsh. Life. Don't talk to me about life.

    Check out VASSAL, the free online SW program! We are always looking for more players, so learn how to use it here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterd View Post
    Im with I like tau on this one!

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by I LIKE TAU! View Post
    But if you just summon the warlock, you get it for 3 magic + one magic for the card. Using Sirian's ability gets rid of the 3 magic cost. So that means the wound is still worth the 3 magic there.
    This is an easy trap to fall into, but it's just not a fair comparison. Opportunity cost matters.

    Scenario 1: I wound Mad Sirian in order to summon a Warlock.
    Scenario 2: I wound Mad Sirian with Blood for Blood, then build the Warlock.

    That's the fair comparison. There's really no way around this. If you want to say the wound is worth 3 magic, fine, but then you are saying that a Blood For Blood wound carries a 1 magic bonus in freed-up opportunity cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by I LIKE TAU! View Post
    I'm not sure I completely agree about Warlocks being 2.5 either.
    OK, fine, make a number you like then. As I pointed out to you (and you couldn't really find a counter-argument) they are, on balance, the weakest 3-coster in the game. The "3" on their card is just a number, anyway. How often do you see people summon Warlocks by spending 3 magic?

    At any rate, in my final analysis I kicked the wound cost back up to 2, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by I LIKE TAU! View Post
    Plus, sometimes there are other things you can wound MSW for besides warlocks and want to, which makes that worth even more then.
    Well, I generally treat StS as a "gain 1 magic at the end of this turn" card. A double Reanimate is stronger, though, as you're only spending 1 card of potential magic (the Reanimate card itself) to get two units. I feel good if I can pull off just one double reanimate in a game, though. Seems like a tough comparison to make.

    Quote Originally Posted by I LIKE TAU! View Post
    So I'd put it closer to 3 than 2.5. With the summon cost, 2.5 means he's right on SSCF, assuming the detriment is only counted for 2 attacks, like Malevolence, when he's really probably worth 3 attacks, since he has about a 50% increase in life.
    Truth be told, I usually don't get more than a couple attacks in with Gul-Dass. I'm pretty sure I had two attacks with him each of the last two times I summoned him, and one the time before that (although it would have been more if my opponent hadn't resigned immediately after that turn).
    Last edited by dok; 07-09-2014 at 12:57 PM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by I LIKE TAU! View Post
    Forbidden Ritual. 2 or even 3 attack zombie chains. It's killer. Plus, all the ones that are infected that turn don't get the wound from it I think.
    But then they're just there. Slightly weak, easy targets, no big role to play... I still think I'd rather play forbidden ritual on phantoms or ghouls.
    Last edited by Olivier; 07-09-2014 at 12:45 PM.
    Olivier
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  8. #28
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    They can play a big role before and after. Especially before, where you get to threaten FR. It's like Scrappers with Daring Plan in Jexik. While it might not be the best strategy, it's definitely viable for the one or two big turns.
    Relax and enjoy your shoes.

    I LIKE TAU! is Oldin the Boring in The 12 Masks of the Summoner
    I LIKE TAU! was Blur the Scholar in The Great Marsh. Life. Don't talk to me about life.

    Check out VASSAL, the free online SW program! We are always looking for more players, so learn how to use it here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterd View Post
    Im with I like tau on this one!

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by killercactus View Post
    The only other argument is Elut-Bal, who still gets those 4 dice with no drawback at the cost of a couple life, and he has some cool RotF synergy if you wanna use that.
    How does he have RotF synergy? Just because you can drive his cost down and make him effectively the cheapest FK champ? That's true I guess, but MSW likes his commons, and I don't have room for App Mages in his deck. I suppose EB makes more sense if you run a lot of Ghouls and Phantoms, where you get them out cheap and then dispose of them, but that's a whole different style and I like having lots of Warlocks on hand.

    (I'll admit it: I've never played RotF successfully. It seems like I always draw it early, and holding it makes no sense. I generally don't have the magic to double-dip on champs anyway. All told, it's pretty common for me to build 6 of Mad Sirian's events, and just play one Reanimate and the two FRs.)

    I love EB in Ret-Talus (I should write an ode to his value in that deck, really) but he makes less sense in Mad Sirian IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by killercactus View Post
    I want to try the FP champs a bit more there.
    Yeah, as you know, there's one FP champ I like in Mad Sirian. It really changes the playstyle so I'd have to adapt, but it seems pretty solid. I like (well, two of) the FP commons in his deck too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncleeurope View Post
    Just remember that grubs still gets hungry even without the bonus.
    Yep, it's a drawback, but I often find that I'm hording my FRs and I play both in the same turn, after Grubs dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olivier View Post
    I too am sold on Grubs and Gull-Dass. For the third champ slot though, I like Corpse Wyrm. Corpse Wyrm can be used to spam phantoms and phantoms have the best synergy with forbidden ritual IMO. Either they possess a unit or they roll two dice and you get back a magic. Pretty awesome if you ask me.
    I have long meant to play the Corpse Wyrm/Phantom combo. It makes a lot of sense, I agree. Totally different playstyle but it can work, on paper at least.

  10. #30
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    Dok, have you tried Duggle in MSW? He can act like Grubs too. Not quite as good, but almost.
    Relax and enjoy your shoes.

    I LIKE TAU! is Oldin the Boring in The 12 Masks of the Summoner
    I LIKE TAU! was Blur the Scholar in The Great Marsh. Life. Don't talk to me about life.

    Check out VASSAL, the free online SW program! We are always looking for more players, so learn how to use it here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterd View Post
    Im with I like tau on this one!

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