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Thread: Speculation for ALL Second Summoners !!

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    Default Speculation for ALL Second Summoners !!

    After reading the speculation thread for the Filth’s second summoner, my mind got buzzing, and I had to ponder the possibilities for all factions.

    I hope the second summoners are very different from the first. I’m looking forward to lots of new dynamics and especially to new faction-defining summoner abilities—referring to the way that Vlox’s ability completely defines how the Cloaks play. At the same time, deckbuilding is my favorite aspect of the game, so nothing would make me more jolly than to see the new and old summoners using each other’s champs and commons. It would also be nice for the factions to keep the most important parts of their current themes. That way, when you’re playing against the Guild Dwarves, no matter which summoner your opponent uses , you know your walls are in danger.

    Here are my thoughts, based on current units, themes, and events.

    Phoenix Elves—PE Archers, Warriors, and Laleya are especially powerful when they have Spirit of the Phoenix. The new summoner will likely feel naked without SoTP among his/her event set. Other than that, almost anything would work in conjuction with the PE commons we know and love (to kill).

    Speculation: Something that assists with movement. Maybe like a CoG that adds a movement space instead of an AV.


    Tundra Orcs—The new summoner should have Freeze and Ice Wall events or Bragg will be useless.

    Speculation: Gaining AV by the number of Ice Walls and Freezes in play would be ultra-cool. To avoid the lame pun, I should have said ultra-sweet.


    Guild Dwarves—Engineers and Ballistas combine for powerful wall-destruction, with Oldin’s Beseige event driving that nail home. The GD co-summoner will want to have some wall-destruction event, if not Besiege itself.

    Speculation: A summoner who eats walls like the Deep Troll would kick booty.


    Cave Goblins—I know from other threads that we’re all hoping for at least one new CG 0-coster to employ Sneeks’ events. Flick (which I understand is the name of the 2nd CG sumoner) will need to be able to take advantage of cheap, plentiful units.

    Speculation: Gaining power (range, movement, or AV) for each unit in play would further encourage Cave Gobbies to flood the board with as many units as possible. This is refreshing since most factions desire a low unit count.


    Vanguards—The 2nd summoner will have access to Priests, and thus be able to take advantage of healing strategies. Even so, the Vanguards have the most potential for adopting a completely new strategy (besides the Mercenaries, obviously).

    Speculation: An AV builder for units, along the lines of CoG or Command could be devastating. Especially since all VG commons—except Cav Knights—double their killing power if they get one additional AV.


    Fallen Kingdom—Ret-Talus is crossing his fingers that Syrian Waters brings some new commons that synergize with Raise the Dead. In other words, commons that can be built as magic during early game, then resurrected late game. And magic denial. When you play against FK, you know that you need to build cards to fund your own summoning, because you’re not getting much from your opponent. I’d love to see that aspect remain.

    Speculation: Raising the Dead from your opponent’s discard pile would be wicked.


    Jungle Elves—Much of the current lineup are designed to carve a huge dent if they can get an opportunity to use Chant of Growth. We’re especially talking about JE Archers, Lionesses, Linoeers, Jungle Guards, Kadara, and Shikwa. That said, nobody wants to see the 2nd summoner having the same ability as Abua, but an event that grants additional AV would be welcome to any JE player.

    Speculation: Camoflage would take advantage of JE’s ranged power and jungle setting. Maybe the summoner could grant the camoflage ability by paying magic.


    Cloaks—Any new Cloak unit will give Vlox a new tool in his toolbox, barring defensive abilities like The Admiral’s. Here’s hoping that the Cloaks will keep the theme of sneakiness and surprise.

    Speculation: Something like Sneeks’ sly could help the cloak units with positioning, which is crucial to them. Maybe the new Cloak summoner could switch any two of his minions (like Chant of Deception).


    Benders—Hmmm. Seems like pretty much anything could work here. It’d be nice to keep the theme of ranged units that are easy to kill.

    Speculation: Something that grants mass movement of the opponent’s units. Like Sandstorm, but without the damage.


    Deep Dwarves—All but one of their current commons require magic to activate their ability, along with half the champs. If the new summoner wants to see as much use as Tundle, he/she needs some way to build magic.

    Speculation: An ability that lowers the cost of summoning by one for each unit could be just the ticket. Obviously, the summoning cost could not reduce below zero for Apprentice Mages.


    Mountain Vargath—The Vargath want to rush and they want to crowd. It’s in their blood.

    Speculation: A ability that grants additional defense power to all Vargath units on the opponent’s side of the battlefield would be fun. Also, a good counterpart to Command.


    Sand Goblins—Both SG Javilineers and Shaman are currently the most overpowered commons in the game. This used to be balanced by a club of awkward champions, but now the SG’s only concession is Krusk’s relatively weak ability and event set (Yes, I know Taunt and Mirage can situaltionally be super-poweful. That’s why I said relatively). If the new summoner has a particularly powerful ability or event set, Krusk will be doomed to gathering dust in the bottom of the box.

    Speculation: I’m drawing a blank here.


    Shadow Elves—Are born assassins. If the new summoner would be wise to take advantage of this. Othersie Swordsmen, SE Hunters, Melek, and Xaserbane will sneak away and beg Selundar to take them back.

    Speculation: This summoner could grant his minions the ability to move through other units. This would probably need to be paid for to keep balance.


    Swamp Orcs—I’ve noticed a few comments that Plaid Hat is not obligated to give vine walls to the 2nd SO summoner; however, if vine walls are not at least included on the setup card, the player will not be able to use Splub. I would be VERY surprised if the new summoner didn’t have some way to get vine walls onto the battlefield. Otherwise SO Hunters, Shaman, and Glarg will find themselves embarrassingly underpowered.

    Speculation: Each time this summoner plays an event card, he may pay 1 magic to place a vine wall adjacent to a wall he controls.


    The Filth—Right now, the Filth rely almost completely on easy deployment and ranged attacks. And sarcasm. Seriously, the 2nd summoner needs to have similar proportions and power to the first Filth deck, to keep The Demagogue from replacing every last Cultist and Zealot. As we’ve discussed in the Filth’s own thread, the new summoner needs some way to make it easier to get mutations into battle. Without that, the Filth would be cripplingly susceptible to the luck of the draw.

    Speculation: Lower the cost of all mutations by one.


    Mercenaries—The broadest of all the factions. There are soooo many different potential strategies for the Mercenaries that I predict their second summoner will have almost nothing in common with Rallul.

    Speculation: This could go ANYWHERE. Just to throw out one idea: Discarding cards from your draw pile to avoid wounds on your summoner would be fun. But that would be far too powerful unless some weakness was added.


    I am eagerly awaiting YOUR speculations.

    -Z_Jr
    Last edited by ZeeJr; 05-13-2012 at 03:28 PM.

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    I don't have any comments or speculation myself. I just wanted to say, it's going to be crazy when we finally get our first glimpse at new summoners... It's like getting a new faction that already has 5-6 commons and 4-6 champions for reinforcements. Every unit that has existed for years in the starter set factions will be totally re-evaluated and re-imagined in the new deck. It's gonna be fun!
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    I like to think of it as, "How can we help the lesser units?" The units that don't see as much play will most likely gain some sort of relevance with the new summoners. I speculate.

    PE - Attack bonuses. Guardians with a +2 attack would be fantastic, along with a Precise 2 attack champion.
    TO - Enhancing d6 abilities. If Fighters triggered on a 4 or higher they'd be fantastic, plus Chargers would take a plus.
    CG - More conventional, less swarm. Berserkers and Climbers are great for the cost, they just need a deck that caters to them.
    GD - Common swarm wall destruction. I see potential in swarming Engineers/Tordok/lower cost units. This would break away from Gror/6 coster/Baldar builds.
    FK - Magic generation through revival. +1 magic every time a unit is revived. The summoner would not revive units. Zombies/Reavers drive the engine.
    VG - Common swarm. Let those awesome commons break out of their shells. Rachel is viable for a low cost opportunist. That shield girl would be usable, too.
    CL - Defense. Snipers/Scam/The Admiral would have a different feel is the Cloaks weren't such a balls to the wall faction.
    JE - Range. Jungle Guards/Shikwa/Archers could be the focus rather than the brute force.

    The newer factions aren't as familiar to me, but these are my guesses for the good old factions.
    Did you know? Invincibility lies in the defense; the possibility of victory in the attack.

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    Here are some I posted a while back.

    Quote Originally Posted by chardris77 View Post
    Some that I think would be cool are

    CL: During your summon phase, you may spend the summon cost of a unit in your hand to place him under your summoner. Once per turn, at any time, you may treat your summoner as if he has the name and special of any unit under him until the end of your turn.

    FK: At the beginning of your turn, you may place the bottom FK card in your discard pile on the bottom of your draw pile.

    GD: Instead of attacking normally, you may roll 1 die. If it is a 3 or higher, you may put one wound marker on any wall.

    SO: During your event phase, you must either put 1 vine wall next to a wall you control, or spend 1 magic and place a vine wall under any SO unit you control.

    TO: (This would be for a melee, zero-attack summoner) At the beggining of your attack phase, roll 1 die. Add whatever is on the die to your summoner's attack value for this turn.

    PE: Insted of attacking with your summoner, you may spend 1 magic and place 1 wound on any common or champion on your side of the battlefield.

    DD: When you play an event, place it on your magic pile, not your discard pile.
    (obviously, this would entail weak events)
    Ps, where was the Filth speculation posted. I missed it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joepinion View Post
    It's like getting a new faction that already has 5-6 commons and 4-6 champions for reinforcements. Every unit that has existed for years in the starter set factions will be totally re-evaluated and re-imagined in the new deck. It's gonna be fun!
    Agreed. Good way of putting it.

    Esper88: I'm especially intrigued by your idea for the Fallen Kingdom. Something like that could be a lot of fun, and it reminds me of some of the better combos from Magic:The Gathering.

    Chardris77: Your Fallen Kingdom idea is also interesting. To be playable, there would probably have to be some kind of limit. Sort of the way Etch is limited by putting wound markers on walls--at some point he will run out of walls to pull magic from. And Tundle will at least run out of draw cards some day.

    Esper's idea for a new TO ability got me thinking.
    She said, "Enhancing d6 abilities. If Fighters triggered on a 4 or higher they'd be fantastic, plus Chargers would take a plus." (Doing a manual quote since the multi-quote option is no longer enabled.)

    I'd actually be really excited to use this ability in a FK deck. Maybe if the summoner ability read something like: "Whenever a unit you control rolls a die to activiate an ability, if that unit is within four spaces of your summoner, you may add 1 to the die roll." All of a sudden Reavers, Phantoms, and even Skhull have far more powerful abilities. This summoner could even have an event that gives +2 to a die roll for one turn. That would make Magic-Lock and Death Curse a guarantee.

    I would LOVE playing with this summoner!!

    -Z_Jr

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeJr View Post
    Agreed. Good way of putting it.

    Esper88: I'm especially intrigued by your idea for the Fallen Kingdom. Something like that could be a lot of fun, and it reminds me of some of the better combos from Magic:The Gathering.

    Chardris77: Your Fallen Kingdom idea is also interesting. To be playable, there would probably have to be some kind of limit. Sort of the way Etch is limited by putting wound markers on walls--at some point he will run out of walls to pull magic from. And Tundle will at least run out of draw cards some day.

    Esper's idea for a new TO ability got me thinking.
    She said, "Enhancing d6 abilities. If Fighters triggered on a 4 or higher they'd be fantastic, plus Chargers would take a plus." (Doing a manual quote since the multi-quote option is no longer enabled.)

    I'd actually be really excited to use this ability in a FK deck. Maybe if the summoner ability read something like: "Whenever a unit you control rolls a die to activiate an ability, if that unit is within four spaces of your summoner, you may add 1 to the die roll." All of a sudden Reavers, Phantoms, and even Skhull have far more powerful abilities. This summoner could even have an event that gives +2 to a die roll for one turn. That would make Magic-Lock and Death Curse a guarantee.

    I would LOVE playing with this summoner!!

    -Z_Jr
    Actually, there still is a multi-quote option. Also, you can just do (quote=esper88)Enhancing...(/quote) except with [] instead of ().
    Ask me about the Summoner Wars VASSAL group chat!

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    actually, i was thinking that the fallen kingdom will have a common \ champion that could steal cards from the opponents discard pile.
    someting like that: Gravedigger: each time the gravedigger destroy and enemy unit, take the top 2 cards from his discard pile. put 1 on top of your magic pile and one on top of your discard pile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeJr View Post
    Phoenix Elves—PE Archers, Warriors, and Laleya are especially powerful when they have Spirit of the Phoenix. The new summoner will likely feel naked without SoTP among his/her event set. Other than that, almost anything would work in conjuction with the PE commons we know and love (to kill).

    Speculation: Something that assists with movement. Maybe like a CoG that adds a movement space instead of an AV.
    Ew, no. SotP gives one Unit auto-hit, and it's not really that strong. I'd like to see an event that gives all commons they control a +1 bonus to their die results; it doesn't take the place of SotP but can match its strength because it affects a global amount.


    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeJr View Post
    Tundra Orcs—The new summoner should have Freeze and Ice Wall events or Bragg will be useless.

    Speculation: Gaining AV by the number of Ice Walls and Freezes in play would be ultra-cool. To avoid the lame pun, I should have said ultra-sweet.
    Uh, I don't see the necessity of that. If Bragg doesn't like the second summoner in canon, it's not necessary that the second summoner have those Events, right?


    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeJr View Post
    Guild Dwarves—Engineers and Ballistas combine for powerful wall-destruction, with Oldin’s Beseige event driving that nail home. The GD co-summoner will want to have some wall-destruction event, if not Besiege itself.

    Speculation: A summoner who eats walls like the Deep Troll would kick booty.
    Sure, but it'd be weird. Why wouldn't you use that new one over Oldin? Weaker events?


    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeJr View Post
    Cave Goblins—I know from other threads that we’re all hoping for at least one new CG 0-coster to employ Sneeks’ events. Flick (which I understand is the name of the 2nd CG sumoner) will need to be able to take advantage of cheap, plentiful units.

    Speculation: Gaining power (range, movement, or AV) for each unit in play would further encourage Cave Gobbies to flood the board with as many units as possible. This is refreshing since most factions desire a low unit count.
    I dunno. As a CG player, I'm personally hoping for no more new 0-costers and a Summoner that works well with 1-costers.


    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeJr View Post
    Vanguards—The 2nd summoner will have access to Priests, and thus be able to take advantage of healing strategies. Even so, the Vanguards have the most potential for adopting a completely new strategy (besides the Mercenaries, obviously).

    Speculation: An AV builder for units, along the lines of CoG or Command could be devastating. Especially since all VG commons—except Cav Knights—double their killing power if they get one additional AV.
    That goes against their theme. I wanna think that a summoner could heal a common Unit to full at the beginning of the turn or remove half the wound markers from a champion, or something along those lines.


    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeJr View Post
    Fallen Kingdom—Ret-Talus is crossing his fingers that Syrian Waters brings some new commons that synergize with Raise the Dead. In other words, commons that can be built as magic during early game, then resurrected late game. And magic denial. When you play against FK, you know that you need to build cards to fund your own summoning, because you’re not getting much from your opponent. I’d love to see that aspect remain.

    Speculation: Raising the Dead from your opponent’s discard pile would be wicked.
    Uh...that'd be...weird. It's technically weaker since you have to have your opponent kill your Units, and they can just build magic on top of that to deny you your own Units.


    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeJr View Post
    Jungle Elves—Much of the current lineup are designed to carve a huge dent if they can get an opportunity to use Chant of Growth. We’re especially talking about JE Archers, Lionesses, Linoeers, Jungle Guards, Kadara, and Shikwa. That said, nobody wants to see the 2nd summoner having the same ability as Abua, but an event that grants additional AV would be welcome to any JE player.

    Speculation: Camoflage would take advantage of JE’s ranged power and jungle setting. Maybe the summoner could grant the camoflage ability by paying magic.
    No, just no. Ranior, a JE main, rarely uses CoG; I don't see the point of an AV booster. Camouflage could be interesting, though.


    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeJr View Post
    Cloaks—Any new Cloak unit will give Vlox a new tool in his toolbox, barring defensive abilities like The Admiral’s. Here’s hoping that the Cloaks will keep the theme of sneakiness and surprise.

    Speculation: Something like Sneeks’ sly could help the cloak units with positioning, which is crucial to them. Maybe the new Cloak summoner could switch any two of his minions (like Chant of Deception).
    Yeah, I can see that. That makes sense, and wouldn't take away from Vlox.


    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeJr View Post
    Benders—Hmmm. Seems like pretty much anything could work here. It’d be nice to keep the theme of ranged units that are easy to kill.

    Speculation: Something that grants mass movement of the opponent’s units. Like Sandstorm, but without the damage.
    Wouldn't that make Deceivers like really really good? Also, you could force your opponent to crowd their own wall, limiting or eliminating their own Summon Points.


    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeJr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeJr View Post
    Deep Dwarves—All but one of their current commons require magic to activate their ability, along with half the champs. If the new summoner wants to see as much use as Tundle, he/she needs some way to build magic.
    Speculation: An ability that lowers the cost of summoning by one for each unit could be just the ticket. Obviously, the summoning cost could not reduce below zero for Apprentice Mages.
    What if the new DD summoner had the Wake the Father Gem ability as a constant, but limited it to one ability at a time?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeJr View Post
    Mountain Vargath—The Vargath want to rush and they want to crowd. It’s in their blood.

    Speculation: A ability that grants additional defense power to all Vargath units on the opponent’s side of the battlefield would be fun. Also, a good counterpart to Command.
    I would think the defense power like that belongs in the reinforcements, and something else would come in the 2nd Summoner, like a bonus if being moved, or something weird and offensive like that.


    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeJr View Post
    Sand Goblins—Both SG Javilineers and Shaman are currently the most overpowered commons in the game. This used to be balanced by a club of awkward champions, but now the SG’s only concession is Krusk’s relatively weak ability and event set (Yes, I know Taunt and Mirage can situaltionally be super-poweful. That’s why I said relatively). If the new summoner has a particularly powerful ability or event set, Krusk will be doomed to gathering dust in the bottom of the box.

    Speculation: I’m drawing a blank here.
    I completely disagree, being as I main Sand Goblins. Krusk's ability is the strongest of all summoners, hence why it costs 2 to use. Raise the Dead, while costing 2, isn't as powerful as this, as you can not only spent 2 magic to inflict 1.5 Wounds but also get things out of the way for your ranged Shamans/Javelineers/Bombers/Tark to deal ranged damage.


    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeJr View Post
    Shadow Elves—Are born assassins. If the new summoner would be wise to take advantage of this. Othersie Swordsmen, SE Hunters, Melek, and Xaserbane will sneak away and beg Selundar to take them back.

    Speculation: This summoner could grant his minions the ability to move through other units. This would probably need to be paid for to keep balance.
    Eh, that makes sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeJr View Post
    Swamp Orcs—I’ve noticed a few comments that Plaid Hat is not obligated to give vine walls to the 2nd SO summoner; however, if vine walls are not at least included on the setup card, the player will not be able to use Splub. I would be VERY surprised if the new summoner didn’t have some way to get vine walls onto the battlefield. Otherwise SO Hunters, Shaman, and Glarg will find themselves embarrassingly underpowered.

    Speculation: Each time this summoner plays an event card, he may pay 1 magic to place a vine wall adjacent to a wall he controls.
    I'd like some way that doesn't seem very obvious until we see it. Something like, surprise me. Dunno, something like:
    During your Event Phase, you may discard a card from your hand to place a Vine Wall on an empty space on your side of the Battlefield.


    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeJr View Post
    The Filth—Right now, the Filth rely almost completely on easy deployment and ranged attacks. And sarcasm. Seriously, the 2nd summoner needs to have similar proportions and power to the first Filth deck, to keep The Demagogue from replacing every last Cultist and Zealot. As we’ve discussed in the Filth’s own thread, the new summoner needs some way to make it easier to get mutations into battle. Without that, the Filth would be cripplingly susceptible to the luck of the draw.

    Speculation: Lower the cost of all mutations by one.
    I mentioned this already, but I'd like the new summoner to increase the cost of the mutations by 1 to be able to summon them as normal Units (adjacent to a Wall, etc.).


    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeJr View Post
    Mercenaries—The broadest of all the factions. There are soooo many different potential strategies for the Mercenaries that I predict their second summoner will have almost nothing in common with Rallul.

    Speculation: This could go ANYWHERE. Just to throw out one idea: Discarding cards from your draw pile to avoid wounds on your summoner would be fun. But that would be far too powerful unless some weakness was added.
    The Mercs are limitless, yeah. But I think they just have to not trample on anyone's theme.
    The night's shadow exists, not sleeping at all,
    The toil of the light is its only call,
    Behind the scenes lurking with shadowy gall,
    Its face never showing; height never too tall.

    Without a cry wherein dissent finds respite,
    The multitudes safer in the billowing light,
    More likely than not to strike evil at night,
    Then silently vanishing to be out of sight.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by thenightsshadow View Post
    What if the new DD summoner had the Wake the Father Gem ability as a constant, but limited it to one ability at a time?
    That sounds like a lot of fun to play with. It should probably only affect units within a certain range of your summoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by thenightsshadow View Post
    I completely disagree, being as I main Sand Goblins. Krusk's ability is the strongest of all summoners, hence why it costs 2 to use. Raise the Dead, while costing 2, isn't as powerful as this, as you can not only spent 2 magic to inflict 1.5 Wounds but also get things out of the way for your ranged Shamans/Javelineers/Bombers/Tark to deal ranged damage.
    Well then, damn. I suppose those damn Sand Goblins have practically no weakness. I was almost going to say they're weak against particularly powerful melee units...but who isn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by thenightsshadow View Post
    I mentioned this already, but I'd like the new summoner to increase the cost of the mutations by 1 to be able to summon them as normal Units (adjacent to a Wall, etc.).
    Wouldn't really be a mutation if they worked like that. Just another mini-champ, like the JE have. That would ignore the theme in a pretty big way.

    Quote Originally Posted by eyalswalrus
    actually, i was thinking that the fallen kingdom will have a common \ champion that could steal cards from the opponents discard pile.
    someting like that: Gravedigger: each time the gravedigger destroy and enemy unit, take the top 2 cards from his discard pile. put 1 on top of your magic pile and one on top of your discard pile.
    Sounds useful. That's a lot more like raising the dead, instead of just raising a unit that you built as magic, so it never got a chance to die.

  10. #10
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    I would be extremely surprised if the second summoners were all as similar to the original decks as is being speculated here.

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