Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12

Thread: errata suggestions for balancing the app meta

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    225

    Default errata suggestions for balancing the app meta

    I appreciate the work that both Waterd and commandercool and his buddy are doing to try and make SW a better experience.

    I've also considered ways to make the game more enjoyable, but the vast majority of my experience is limited to the app. I regret not being able to comment further on the work they are doing, although I respect it.

    For those of us that play the app, there are a few things that have long been cited by players as issues with the game - namely Etch, RMs, and Magic Drain. That isn't to say that if all the cards were available on the app, the game wouldn't be better balanced, as some posters have suggested. I simply don't know, but what I do know is that most app players find Etch and RMs so objectionable in particular that we have contributed to "blacklist" threads calling out players that use them in non-Rallul decks and tourney rules which simply ban Etch and RMs from non-Rallul decks.

    Magic Drain is more of a long-running issue that most players have simply assumed cannot be changed without blasting the game itself. Some tourneys have been run that limit the usage of magic drain.

    I think that there are some straightforward fixes for these 3 problem cards and I would like to put them forward. Please feel free to let me know what you think.

    Etch

    First of all, I don't have many problems anymore with Etch, or RMs for that matter. I tend to keep my walls spaced out in L-shapes, I rarely put both walls against the midpoint, and often I sweep my walls back into my own end. I also play aggressively and try to dominate the mid-field when I can. These days I rarely see RMs being deployed, and when I see Etch I am usually making sure he doesn't last more than a few turns.

    However, Etch is the source of much frustration for players and it would be nice to nerf his ability in some way. The problem with Etch is that his power is uneconomical, and encourages turtling play.

    First of all, let's look at his statline. At 2/4/4 ranged, it's underpriced. He should cost at least 1 more.

    Players all know that if you let Etch sit back and 'mine' magic, he could easily have enough magic built up to unload the other 2 champs, and more importantly, many commons to support the champs. 'There's 27 magic in them there walls!'

    The idea of "1 wound for 1 magic" holds up for most other cards, but walls are a little different. For one, Walls cost nothing to summon, so they cost 1 magic, but you get 9 life out of them. On the other hand, ice walls also cost 1 magic (the cost being the card itself) and only have 3 life.

    There are a few other cards that are worth considering:

    1. Besiege the Walls (1 magic to use, being the card itself) can do 3 to 9 wounds;
    2. Mirage (1 magic to use, being the card itself) heals up 3 on each wall, to 9 wounds;
    3. Fury of Godshome (1 magic to use, being the card itself) can transfer 3 to 9 wounds.

    These cards all seem to suggest that 1 magic should be worth at least 3 wounds on a wall. So it would stand to reason that the way to balance Etch's power would be to do 3 wounds on the wall for 1 magic.

    That would promote using Etch aggressively to attack walls while also preventing Etch from getting too much magic back. Using him in TO for example, would mean he gets 1 magic back for each ice wall - which is incidentally the cost of 1 ice wall.

    RMs

    As I mentioned with Etch, I don't often have problems with RMs much these days. By keeping walls back, never staggering them, and maintaining mid-board position, I make RMs an expensive and ultimately risky move for my opponent.

    But I do find that you play RMs differently than you would play without RMs. You don't always know if your opponent has them, and too often you get caught with your pants down. And once RMs hit the board in successful position, you are in big trouble.

    The way that occurred to me to provide some relief is by limiting the odds an RM drains on a turn. For example, if RMs had to roll and only got magic on a 5 or 6, I think that would strike a fair balance between having a card that poses a threat vs. a card that will break your game.

    Magic Drain

    Magic Drain is intended to be a balancing agent, where a player who has lost to some bad rolls or inferior position can get himself back into the game and make it a fair fight. Early on, Magic Drain was a much more common mechanic that has been largely and then completely ignored in later releases, and even disparaged to the point where posters are proposing to remove it from the game completely.

    In the app, Magic Drain does not act as a balancing factor. For one, not every faction has a Magic Drain, or Summoning Surge, or Freeze. For another, when a Magic Drain is present it tends to create a "race to the bottom" where players will kill their own units in order to gain a disadvantage on the board, either to let them deploy magic drain or avoid having one cast on it.

    Players see Magic Drain as a 4-card swing, when in reality it is a 3 card swing (counting the card itself going to discard). Even still, a 3-magic swing is a big deal, and there are 2 cards in the deck to make that possible. Bottom line, 6 magic is enough to buy a third champ.

    The way I tend to play Magic Drain is to try and make sure that the cards the opponent is draining are his own. In other words, he has left commons on the board vulnerable, so I kill them. He drains me, he gets his two commons back. I don't lose any of my own cards that I can later use for magic. He effectively gets his own men back and loses 1 card.

    However, too few players employ this strategy, and Magic Drain will work even in situations when you have none of their commons to eliminate.

    So it occurs to me that the easiest way to fix this is by making Magic Drain able to ONLY drain their own units from your magic pile.

    I would add one further condition - that they can only look at the top 5 cards of the Magic Pile, draw up to 2 of their commons, and put the remaining cards back in the order they want. That's more to avoid people shuffling through large magic piles.

    This accomplishes one important and crucial thing - you can build your own magic pile, with your own units and event cards, without having to worry about them getting devoured by a Magic Drain.

    It also accomplishes something else. Players will no longer profit off your magic pile by killing their own units.

    As a side note, if you kill their unit and burn 4 cards at the end of the turn, their Magic Drain will only net them one of their own units back. Magic Drain would only be economical when you have lost 2 or more units and the opponent has not burned 4 or 5 cards.

    This would encourage quick use of Magic Drain, you would still get up to 2 cards back, and it would minimize the chilling effect Magic Drain has on players that are building magic.



    Other

    I also see no reason for why Elien and Grognack have any underpriced champs (particularly Fire Drake and Krung).

    I also think that if you are going to nerf Magic Drain, you should make Freeze cost Grognack 1 magic.

    I would make Gror cost 9 magic and Baldar cost 6 magic, and Heroic Feat cost 1 magic.

    Also, perhaps if Sprog's power didn't cost 1 magic, it would be worth using. Worth thinking about.


    So to sum it up neatly:

    1. Etch's power will do 3 wounds to a wall;
    2. RMs drain magic on a roll of 5 or 6;
    3. Magic Drain lets you look at the top 5 cards of your opponent's magic pile, take up to 2 of your units, and put the remaining cards back in any order you like.



    I don't know if similar ideas have been proposed before. But I look forward to any and all of your thoughts.
    Last edited by Rdebruys83; 04-17-2018 at 03:53 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    3,429

    Default

    Give you talk about the app, I don't get what is the purpose of this, unless you found a way to bribe some of the coders of playdeck to implement any changes you are proposing...well I just dont get it.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    345

    Default

    Per the neat sum up:
    1. A little too powerful in aggressive use, i think. I would change to rolling 3 dice on a wall, not just guaranteed damage, but,
    2. Nerfing RM’s and etch so drastically would severely nerf rallul, who isn’t (at least decidedly) over-powered. Simply cutting out the ability to include rallul mercs anywhere else fixes both problems without wrecking rallul.
    3. Not a bad idea on the MD. I escpecially like that it encourages PE to play more aggressively. Would you still include the condition of having fewer units in play?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    3,429

    Default

    Rallul isn't overpowered? You could Make rune mages 1/1 that cost 3 and etch a 0/1 that cost 9 and rallul would still be prolly op.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,379

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ithamar Conkey View Post
    Per the neat sum up:
    1. A little too powerful in aggressive use, i think. I would change to rolling 3 dice on a wall, not just guaranteed damage, but,
    2. Nerfing RM’s and etch so drastically would severely nerf rallul, who isn’t (at least decidedly) over-powered. Simply cutting out the ability to include rallul mercs anywhere else fixes both problems without wrecking rallul.
    3. Not a bad idea on the MD. I escpecially like that it encourages PE to play more aggressively. Would you still include the condition of having fewer units in play?
    Rallul IS overpowered. Probably the best deck in Game, even Outside of RM and etch

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    225

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ithamar Conkey View Post
    3. Not a bad idea on the MD. I escpecially like that it encourages PE to play more aggressively. Would you still include the condition of having fewer units in play?
    Yes I think so. I think when I look back on all the suggestions I made, I wanted to keep the "true" idea behind the card intact, and Magic Drain's "true" idea really is that it is only to be used when you have fewer units than your opponent.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    225

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterd View Post
    Give you talk about the app, I don't get what is the purpose of this, unless you found a way to bribe some of the coders of playdeck to implement any changes you are proposing...well I just dont get it.
    I explained that I am proposing changes to the app because I know the app. Some people have argued that Alliances and SS have balanced the game out. I don't think anyone is prepared to say that like it's a fact, and I also don't want to presume that any ideas I have are better than the other ones that do take the whole game into consideration.

    I don't know anything about the licensing agreement Playdek has with Plaid Hat Games, or the publishing agreement Asmodee has with Playdek, so I really don't know who to direct any errata suggestions to. But Playdek might not be able to alter the content without PHG's permission.

    Needless to say, it doesn't have to be anything more than food for thought. I think we'd all rather see the rest of the content released on the app before any changes to the balance of the game are introduced. At that point, the balance of certain cards may shift.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    225

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ithamar Conkey View Post
    Per the neat sum up:
    1. A little too powerful in aggressive use, i think. I would change to rolling 3 dice on a wall, not just guaranteed damage, but,
    2. Nerfing RM’s and etch so drastically would severely nerf rallul, who isn’t (at least decidedly) over-powered. Simply cutting out the ability to include rallul mercs anywhere else fixes both problems without wrecking rallul.
    My only issue with this, at least on the app, is:

    1. how useful Mundol and AMs are with Admiral in Vlox;
    2. how useful AMs are in a Ret-Talus deck (using no-cost dark sacrifices and no-cost summons for Elut Bal)
    3. how useful Stone Golems can be in Tacullu and Sera;
    4. AMs in Swamp Orcs to build walls.

    Also, the reason for no Rallul mercs, as far as I know, really isn't about AMs, Mundol and Stone Golems, as much as it has to do with Etch and RMs.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    3,429

    Default

    In order is 1. Etch 2.Stone golems, 3.AM 4RM

    If etch is allowed basically everyone uses it, excepto MV and Sneeks.
    Tacullu becomes "perfect" and more opressive.

    Then come second golems because they make Tacullu and tundle even more powerfull.

    The comes AM because it makes MUGG pretty much opressive to many decks.

    Finally RM....because people dont enjoy playing vs RM or something.

    Ive played several tournamns during the not banned rallul units era on the beta...
    Every succesfull deck, in terms of results in the tournaments had etch, Apprentice mage or stone golems. in some cases a combination of them.

    RM are banned because people dont enjoy what they produce, they are really not op.
    Last edited by Waterd; 04-18-2018 at 05:06 PM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    225

    Default

    I forgot about Golems in Tundle. They are good because Illusionary Warrior makes them cost only 2 cards (versus 3), and Kynder's power can move them outside of the movement phase.

    But strictly speaking about the app, I think that Stone Golems, Mundol and AMs actually help balance the weaker factions against the stronger ones, at least for the most part. I note that some of the weakest factions, Ret Talus and Vlox in particular, can get major value out of Rallul units that aren't Etch or RMs.

    Of course, a distinction could easily be drawn between Etch, RMs and other Rallul units. Note we are just talking about the app here. If Ret has Augurs, and Vlox has Kyra or Fink, maybe they don't need Rallul's units anymore.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •