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Thread: Changing MD -- tally

  1. #1
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    May 2015
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    Default Changing MD -- tally

    The question is whether all MD should be changed or only some. I looked back through the major threads (KC's thread and real errata master thread) and by my count:

    - Change all MD: commandercool, adalbert, glenn3e, thenightshadow, Khayzhard, prometheuslkr, mjje, Colonel_S, lcanela, Fataliomega, Letís play a game!, Prelate, jyoder, ninjaknight, NBurghardt (originally said should be left in Vlox, but more recently said heís testing a Vlox errata), KBurg7 (originally said maybe 1 MD can stay, but is now testing MD replacements for all summoners so the logical conclusion is he now thinks all MD should be changed), Waterd 17
    - Change all but Ret and Vlox MD: Robert Srzednicki: 1
    - Change all but Vlox: jwalker, killercactus: 2
    - Change all MD but Ret MD: esper88 1

    81% say all MD should be changed
    19% usay not all MD should be changed
    Last edited by commandercool; 04-12-2018 at 06:07 PM.

  2. #2
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    It’s not that Vlox and Ret (minus mass warlocks) couldn’t use help, but MD simply isn’t fun or interesting to me.

  3. #3
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    I want all MD to be changed, just that rets is the only place where isn't horrible.

  4. #4
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    Don't want to start a big big discussion here, but just express my position.

    Magic drain has 2 major design draw backs and these are mostly the reasons people hate on it (and justified!).

    1) promotes self kill and summoning units, to avoid MD which often leads into a stalemate
    2) messes enemy resources, which is unfun. Especially if opponent has an actual stronger unit composition on the board (1 champ vs. your 2x 0 coster)

    Now we have this 5 maybe 6 (if you count Meda) that has this event. Just ask yourself, considering how the deck works and performs - would ANYONE really hate so much on MD if it'd be only in Vlox? I mean I was surprised noone objected strongly vs. Spy and THAT is a really shitty and unfun event. Spy is also bad design as it's random, can hardly be avoided and has a powercurve from loose one common to loose a champ or your most powerful event.

    The problem of MD lies in the decks that use it
    Elein, Oldin, Tacu: hit and run, unit stealing or another catch-up event is such a strong reason not to summon too many units in this MU. The combination of the strong defensive position AND the MD discourage is a real big problem in these decks.
    Ret: has some minor sub-theme to play magic starvation, but honestly beside anica and hirud they never really supported that playstyle after the skelletal archers (I don't count reavers ...!). People don't care about MD in Ret as much, as he can just sacrifice/Elut into MD, so avoiding is pointless anyway.

    Elein, Oldin, Tacu and Ret -> are all very strong decks, that we want to slightly nerf anyway so MD is the perfect hook. Elein is probably the weakest but has also some problems with going into offense, so a MD redesign that is not a nerf but a neural change could really help out this decks biggest flaw.

    Vlox: Now Vlox I see totally different. Avoiding MD in Vlox comes with the risk of raids or other Vlox tricks (thief + cloak from front wall). Further, Vlox has no power event like magic pulse, heroic feat or Greater burn. He also does not have access to super powerful units, that are above the normal curve (FireDrake, Dinky, Sorgwen and so on). Vlox works, because his main weapon is limiting the opponents resources (Spy, Raid, MD and Admiral) and therefore fighting with a weak setup vs. a "resources starved" opponent. If you just add a powerful event you also destroy the idea and feel of Vlox and it will be very difficult to balance. So most will just instantly say, yeah sure he's stealing and it sucks, change him. But Vlox is an OK power deck, that has some cool tricks build in (raid+vlox, early setup scrapper into vlox, renegate stuff midgame, violett shenanigens). Playing vs. Vlox even with MD is much less frustrating than vs. Oldin or Tacu, especially if you can't loose your champs anymore to spy (can't discard champs).

    TLDR: Vlox has great power level, is not terribly obnoxious to play against (with change that spy can't discard champ) and MD doesn't have the same negative impact as in other decks.

  5. #5
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    Spy really is not even close to MD, for starters it's not even that powerfull, and it doesn't force the game to go into a crappy direction. Spy is a bad event because its unintersting and boring, not because its powerfull or degenerate tghe game.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterd View Post
    Spy really is not even close to MD, for starters it's not even that powerfull, and it doesn't force the game to go into a crappy direction. Spy is a bad event because its unintersting and boring, not because its powerfull or degenerate tghe game.
    Well the chance for Spy to discard a champ is like 30-40% (don't remember the chances exactly). The effect of Spy can be completely different and is random. For CG to loose invinceability or a champ is such a huge downer. You put Eater on bottom of deck and discard Mook and the game is basically won. Then next game you will draw 4x commons and 1x goblin rage and the power of the event is really low. MD is strong economical but one can prepare for it (expect it), spy can only be avoided in rushing fast through your deck to get your champs before the opponent draws spy.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwalker View Post
    Well the chance for Spy to discard a champ is like 30-40% (don't remember the chances exactly). The effect of Spy can be completely different and is random. For CG to loose invinceability or a champ is such a huge downer. You put Eater on bottom of deck and discard Mook and the game is basically won. Then next game you will draw 4x commons and 1x goblin rage and the power of the event is really low. MD is strong economical but one can prepare for it (expect it), spy can only be avoided in rushing fast through your deck to get your champs before the opponent draws spy.
    I completely agree

  8. #8
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    I personally feel losing a champ or a big event is not really much bigger "luck impact" than when you roll that 0/2 that allow the opponent champ to survive one more turn. Yes, Spy is high variance, no doubt about it. I agree the sneeks example is probably the worst in the game, sneeks power relies too much in goblin invincibility and Mook, two of the best cards in the game. But this is generally not the case. Barring scenarios like that, i prefer to get spied and lose my best champ than get magic drained once. (not even talking once).
    There are very few events as powerfull as Magic Drain, most are generally summoner defining (Fury of godshome, goblin invincibility, Look what I can do!, wow hard to think about anything else)
    Last edited by Waterd; 04-13-2018 at 12:09 PM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
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    29

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    MD works fine only for Vlox's theme magic steal.
    Strategy is the key. Luck is all you need then.

  10. #10
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    Mar 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwalker View Post
    Don't want to start a big big discussion here, but just express my position.

    Magic drain has 2 major design draw backs and these are mostly the reasons people hate on it (and justified!).

    1) promotes self kill and summoning units, to avoid MD which often leads into a stalemate
    2) messes enemy resources, which is unfun. Especially if opponent has an actual stronger unit composition on the board (1 champ vs. your 2x 0 coster)

    Now we have this 5 maybe 6 (if you count Meda) that has this event. Just ask yourself, considering how the deck works and performs - would ANYONE really hate so much on MD if it'd be only in Vlox? I mean I was surprised noone objected strongly vs. Spy and THAT is a really shitty and unfun event. Spy is also bad design as it's random, can hardly be avoided and has a powercurve from loose one common to loose a champ or your most powerful event.

    The problem of MD lies in the decks that use it
    Elein, Oldin, Tacu: hit and run, unit stealing or another catch-up event is such a strong reason not to summon too many units in this MU. The combination of the strong defensive position AND the MD discourage is a real big problem in these decks.
    Ret: has some minor sub-theme to play magic starvation, but honestly beside anica and hirud they never really supported that playstyle after the skelletal archers (I don't count reavers ...!). People don't care about MD in Ret as much, as he can just sacrifice/Elut into MD, so avoiding is pointless anyway.

    Elein, Oldin, Tacu and Ret -> are all very strong decks, that we want to slightly nerf anyway so MD is the perfect hook. Elein is probably the weakest but has also some problems with going into offense, so a MD redesign that is not a nerf but a neural change could really help out this decks biggest flaw.

    Vlox: Now Vlox I see totally different. Avoiding MD in Vlox comes with the risk of raids or other Vlox tricks (thief + cloak from front wall). Further, Vlox has no power event like magic pulse, heroic feat or Greater burn. He also does not have access to super powerful units, that are above the normal curve (FireDrake, Dinky, Sorgwen and so on). Vlox works, because his main weapon is limiting the opponents resources (Spy, Raid, MD and Admiral) and therefore fighting with a weak setup vs. a "resources starved" opponent. If you just add a powerful event you also destroy the idea and feel of Vlox and it will be very difficult to balance. So most will just instantly say, yeah sure he's stealing and it sucks, change him. But Vlox is an OK power deck, that has some cool tricks build in (raid+vlox, early setup scrapper into vlox, renegate stuff midgame, violett shenanigens). Playing vs. Vlox even with MD is much less frustrating than vs. Oldin or Tacu, especially if you can't loose your champs anymore to spy (can't discard champs).

    TLDR: Vlox has great power level, is not terribly obnoxious to play against (with change that spy can't discard champ) and MD doesn't have the same negative impact as in other decks.
    Agreed.....

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