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Thread: Ranking releases

  1. #21
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    They fit well thematically but are awful. They’re awful in and of themselves. 1/1/1 with a bad ability. As Waterd mentioned 1AV Units aren’t worth summoning unless they have a good ability or way that AV scales up (Tinkerer, Jav, Priest in Sera, Etc.). the reason is that 1AV is really bad—not as much in beginning of game when everyone basically has all these 1AV Units in the board—bc there’s such a high chance of that Unit doing nothing (33% miss). Moreover, as your opponent scales his units collective AV upwards, you don’t want to be left with a bunch of 1AV Units.

    Also the opportunity cost to summon skele is high: for one more magic you can summon a Warlock, FK cultist, Vamp. All of these are far better than the skele.

    Even if Skele ability triggered always they’re still bad due to 1AV and oppprtunity cost. You think you’ll win a game wen you’ve summoned so many Skele 1AV and opponent has 2AV commons and 2+AV champs?
    Last edited by commandercool; 04-06-2018 at 08:51 AM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by commandercool View Post
    Even if Skele ability triggered always theyÂ’re still bad due to 1AV and oppprtunity cost. You think youÂ’ll win a game wen youÂ’ve summoned so many Skele 1AV and opponent has 2AV commons and 2+AV champs?
    Not exactly. You don't play them alone, you use them in a deck with certain synergies, so my guess is that with SA + Anica + Hirud + Magic Drain (in Ret) my opponent won't have all that stuff on the table, I'll be able to summon my 3 champs and he will pull out only 2.
    At least that's what usually happens in my games, I admit that it's entirely possible my usual opponents suck at this game, but still on average they seem to be playable (I'm not saying they are wonderful, and I don't use a 10 skeletal archers deck, but the definition of "awful" seems too much to me).
    Last edited by Fing80; 04-06-2018 at 11:36 AM.

  3. #23
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    Back on topic, why did you put Dema is in mistakes where made? Just curious.

  4. #24
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    Dema is awful bc Dema is almost Tacullu level unfun to play against. Almost every Dema tool is unfun:
    - Dema ability for infinite magic engine
    - Possessed Wall which is like a mild magic drain except cards come from your hand and nothing is given to opponent
    - Heretics Rebuke to make you not play commons and which is both an amazing defensive and offensive tool
    - Shield of the Hopeful which is only mildly annoying in comparison to Demas other crap
    - Claw Mutant to make you not play champs or just bite the bullet; and then opponent self killing or swapping it out before it dies so he can rinse and repeat
    - hidden Tentacle mutant you can never reach
    - Her another unit you can never reach
    - Amoeba Mutant that exists only for infinite magic generation
    - Corpulent Mutant which can be impossible to kill only to match forward and warp into a perfectly placed different unit
    - Blade Mutant which can do 4 auto Wound
    - Tusk Mutant which is free with channel Corruption
    - self killing mutations to deny magic
    - Horror Mutant which prevents attacks from even summoners
    - spellsucker Mutant which completely destroys power of summoners that absolutely need their events and negates what opponent is trying to do
    - all of these tools in a summoner that is top 5 in the game and which many summoners have no chance to beat. Playing Dema like playing Tacullu makes me want to never play the game again and throw my SW box away

    The only reason people don’t compare Dema more to Tacullu is Dema is far harder to play so fewer people have played against obnoxious Dema and people enjoy playing as Dema more due to unique and sometimes challenge of Mutation mechanic.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fing80 View Post
    Not exactly. You don't play them alone, you use them in a deck with certain synergies, so my guess is that with SA + Anica + Hirud + Magic Drain (in Ret) my opponent won't have all that stuff on the table, I'll be able to summon my 3 champs and he will pull out only 2.
    At least that's what usually happens in my games, I admit that it's entirely possible my usual opponents suck at this game, but still on average they seem to be playable (I'm not saying they are wonderful, and I don't use a 10 skeletal archers deck, but the definition of "awful" seems too much to me).
    We agree to disagree. Awful is choosing a 1/1/1 with an ok ability (if ability always triggered) vs choosing a 2/2/2 (via augur or raise or even cheaper via greater raise) ranged Warlock. Not only is 1/1/1 a 1AV but is guaranteed almost to die after throwing only 1 die. The difference between 2 and 1 av is significant for reasons mentioned elsewhere. The Warlock often will throw 4 dice before dying. Additionally, you overlook that another way to gain magic unit over opponent instead of your card going to discard when opponent destroys it is simply to trade at a better rate than opponent and good units like a Warlock help you do so.

    Also skele has almost no synergy in any Ret deck. It doesn’t work well with Dark Sac. Past that there are only attenuated synergies like Hirud “forcing” opponent to play commons and maybe just maybe skele being better against commons than Champs bc champs are almost certain to kill them in one attack when commons aren’t bc champs typically are higher AV.
    But do you just hide Hirud? I mean, Hirud has low life so opponent just kills him and then summon his champ. Also Anica works against any kind of loose synergy with skele as Anica forces champ play. Yes, Hirud, Anica, Skele all are similar mechanically in that they are meant to starve/deplete enemy magic, but that’s not a synergy.

    Also skele is awful as greater raise or raise target bc it becomes more expensive.

    Also are you Greater raising skele? That’s a major mistake as it means you’re not getting 3 warlocks for 4 magic (combined 6 life and 6 attack) and instead getting 3 Skele at a more expensive price (4 magic v 3 normal magic AND combined 3 life and 3 Attack).

    And even if you’re not Greater Raising then and instead just summoning a lot of them, how do you also afford to summon all 3 champs and any useful commons unless your opponent is really bad and just feeding you magic with commons?

    But even then the game isn’t just about depriving magic from opponent, and even if I agreed for sake of argument which I don’t that Skele with such bad statline v Warlock helps you trade better with opponent, game is also about positioning and in order and to get better positioning you need more health and attack value bc you need those units to not die and you also need to be able to actually kill things which 1AV fails to do.
    Last edited by commandercool; 04-06-2018 at 01:56 PM.

  6. #26
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    I don’t mean to be a jerk. I’m just trying to explain the reasoning that goes on behind thinking Skeles suck.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by commandercool View Post
    I donÂ’t mean to be a jerk. IÂ’m just trying to explain the reasoning that goes on behind thinking Skeles suck.
    Don't worry, I get that. I don't understand why you imply that having skeletal means not having warlock, though. I never said I chose skeletal over warlock (I use them in every FK Ret deck, to be honest), I just have them both in the deck.
    I don't think that makes any difference in your general opinion, I only said it for the sake of clarity.

  8. #28
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    With the arrival of Warlock Skellis are just unplayable, HOWEVER, we can still talk about skellis in the APP where warlock is not a presence.
    I will say Commandercool explained all points perfectly, specially t hat "all cards doing the same" is not "synergy", and more important that the best way to get magic advantage is just playing more efficient units.
    I don't need opponents magic when im playing my 2/2 vs his 1/1 as CC said. You will need many skellis (which still cost 2 magic per piece), to deal with my units. There is no way to truly deny an opponent of magic really, they still have their own deck, and when the opponent is using suboptimal units in combat, ..well thats all he will need.

    Sadly even on app skellis are bad units. And I really hate the lack of interaction with dark sacrifice. If it wouldn't have an anti synergylike that, i would play a few skellies on the app, just because ret desperately needs ranged. But I think not only skellies are a bad units by themselves, their lack of synergy wtih ret is frustrating, bad interaction with both Dark sacrifice and greater rise, no boost to skellies. Ive been playing quite a bit of ret talus ont eh app the last weeks. And Lack of ranged is so painfull that sometimes im tempted to play skellies, but mostly i just prefer the play the slightly better commons. Sadly all FK commons in the app are awfull.

  9. #29
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    I think dema is good, i like its existence, i think unlike tacullu is more interesting and less frustrating. Dema has more balanced matchups than tacullu. Where dema gives you hope, tacullu gives you none. Most summoners really do like 2-8 vs Tacullu. In that sense i think tacullu is more frustrating. Tacullu is not "op" because some of the best summoners tend to have a positive matchup vs it. (particularly Dema and Tundle). But vs most summoners tacullu is way more opressive than dema. Many of the most loopsided matchups in the game, involve tacullu.

    If there were a tournament were i could choose my summoner knowing my opponent summoner, there will be no doubt that Tacullu would see more play than dema. In fact is hard to imagine a matchup where i want DEMA over anything else (most of the time ellien, tacullu, tundle , rallul, and Oldin, would just be preferable to dema).

    More important Dema is different, one of the flaws of summoner wars is that it has too many summoners that added nothing or barely nothing to the game imo. Dema added something unique, different, unlike many other summoners in the game, i can justify it's creation and existence.

    if i would start removing summoner of the game to only be left with 10, dema would make my list.
    Dema games are fun and different, yes he is op.

  10. #30
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    if i could only be let with 10 summoners my list is.
    Frick (sneeks would be ok)
    Sunderver (Moyra would be ok)
    Jexix (both Vlox and Marek may be better)
    Ret talus
    Maldaria
    Natazga (Glurblug would be ok)
    Bolvi
    Shiva
    Abua (Saturos would be ok)
    Dema

    This list has a real use, when i teach a new player SW, i keep the game using only those summoners, with most people i never play with other summoners.
    Last edited by Waterd; 04-06-2018 at 07:45 PM.

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