Page 3 of 10 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 95

Thread: Fighting the dice, a easy and effective way to compensate for dice luck?

  1. #21
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    2,853

    Default

    The only criticism of dice cards was predictability. There's a strategy out there where you remove a certain % of the cards so you can't be sure which numbers will show up. For example, if there are 42 dice cards (7 cards for each die result), and you remove 20, it becomes really difficult to predict which cards are going to show up. And yet, the "dice" results don't have extreme potential as in SW. Of course, if you've rolled 6/7 of the 6s, and you have 10 cards left, it's extremely unlikely that the other 6 is in there. Then again, there's some kind of slowness with the cards.

    I'm convinced that the best way to ensure over the course of a game--rather than just a turn--not awful or outstanding luck is some type of dice card counter. But it needs to be extremely, extremely simple.

    Here's the type of simplicity I'd like:
    - Wound Markers used, not a new type of counter
    - Counter only counts to 0-1, instead of 0-3; this means it's binary so it's a little faster. Wound Marker? No/Yes. Ok: trigger/not triggered.
    - Only three "rules:" one for redeeming, one for adding if abysmal luck, one for subtracting for amazing luck.

    In terms of meta, here's what I want:
    - a good solution for 1AV units. You need to be able to redeem for 1AV units. But it also needs to not boost 1AV units.

    Now it may turn out that the counter is still too slow.
    Last edited by commandercool; 09-18-2017 at 07:10 PM.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    2,853

    Default

    Here's what I came up with:

    Final, Dice Card.jpg

    Rules Card: Dice Card
    Starting Wound Markers. This card starts with 2 Wound Markers. It may have 1 Wound Marker minimum and 3 Wound Markers maximum.

    Luck. At the end of your attack phase, if During this turn you rolled: 5+ Hits for every Miss, add 1 Wound Marker to your Dice Card; 2+ Misses for every Hit, remove 1 Wound Marker from your Dice Card. Then, you may not attack with additional Units during this turn.

    Re-rolling. Once per turn, after attacking with a Unit you control, if your Dice Card has 1 Wound Marker, you may add 2 Wound Markers to your Dice Card to re-roll 1 Miss.


    Notes
    - Card moves along a spectrum. This is best (simple, fast) way to keep track of your luck throughout the game

    - 2 wounds represents avg luck. 3 above-average (5/5 is approximately 11% of the time); 1 represents below-average (0/2 is approximately 12% of time). I couldn't quite make both percentages be the same

    - Why at end of attack phase? gets rid of the worst abuses and gaming of the rule--ordering your turn such that you may get better luck on a summoner for example. Beyond a rule "abuse," we don't want to add that complexity to the game because it slows the game down. And the game is SW, not "dice order strategy Wars."

    - Adding/removing part is easy/fast to administer: just keep track of die result count and it becomes easy to see whether you're adding or removing 1 wound from your dice card or doing nothing.

    - You may not attack with Units after adding/removing Wound Markers from your Dice Card. This is to prevent a loophole for Sorgwen/Endrich, etc.

    - Re-rolling. The reward for crappy lucky has to be immediately after unit attacks. It can't be at end of you turn bc then you could choose which unit to re-roll with, which is a benefit. The point of the rule isn't to give any extra benefit besides just added control for the unluckiness of dice. It has to be that you re-roll a miss bc otherwise you could re-roll a Rukar, etc. 3-4 in hopes of getting a 5. The point of the rule is to give a greater chance to let a Miss be a Hit, not to let you do even more damage on something that's already Hit. That's an unjustifiable windfall.

    - Note you don't fiddle with enemy's dice card. This is really important bc fiddling with enemy's dice card makes the rule more complicated and slows the game down. Therefore, this version makes the process simpler and faster.

    - Changing the meta. It's an illusion to think a dice variation rule that doesn't "change the meta" could possibly exist. They can't. Units that do AOE damage will disproportionately benefit from this rule; units that do precise damage will face some unascertainable negative consequence. At any rate, shooting from the hip, I don't think the top dogs will get any benefit from this rule, and that's the best we can hope for. EDIT: Gror gets benefit, but we have our hands on a lot of Oldin knobs over in the errata project, so we can control Oldin's overall power. Besides, Gror losing Heroic Feat is a huge Gror loss. For other AOE units, this just helps MV and VV, as far as I can tell.

    - It's possible benefit isn't good enough. But I saw need to not let you profit big in a turn where you're already doing well. It needs to be 1 Miss die. It needs to be 1 die, not the entire attack roll for the reason that an entire attack roll disproportionately favors high AV units (i.e. Rallul-pulse can re-roll 10+ dice, etc. whereas a measly Jav could only re-roll 1 die). And it needs to be a Miss die for the reason that the Miss is at least a proxy for a not amazing turn though an admittedly weak proxy for that (bc you can still have an awesome turn if you roll 1 miss). Why not use the stronger proxy for a weak turn of rolling 2+ dice and more misses than hits? Bc it's really bad for 1AV units and makes no sense in and of itself for 1AV units. And it's also more complicated! Maybe there's a colorable argument that it's more important to prevent a re-roll on somebody's really good turn than it is to not harm 1AV, but I think that's almost a mountain to climb for the reason that a re-roll of 1 die on a really good turn isn't going to create a steamroll--1 die doesn't have that power. Also, remember that I have the penalty of adding 2 Wound Markers to your dice card to just re-roll that 1 miss. If you use the re-roll on a really good turn, then you'll be up at 3 Wound Markers for awhile. But on the other hand, if you use the-reroll on a really bad turn, it's possible that you still can get down 2 Wound Markers that turn. So the penalty affects the person that re-rolls on a good turn far more harshly than it affects the person re-rolling on the really bad turn. And that's a good thing.

    - The rule may be imperfect, but I've taken my best stab at it, and want to test.
    Last edited by commandercool; 09-18-2017 at 10:13 PM.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    2,853

    Default

    Prelim self test shows this rule is fast

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,379

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by commandercool View Post
    The only criticism of dice cards was predictability. There's a strategy out there where you remove a certain % of the cards so you can't be sure which numbers will show up. For example, if there are 42 dice cards (7 cards for each die result), and you remove 20, it becomes really difficult to predict which cards are going to show up. And yet, the "dice" results don't have extreme potential as in SW. Of course, if you've rolled 6/7 of the 6s, and you have 10 cards left, it's extremely unlikely that the other 6 is in there. Then again, there's some kind of slowness with the cards.
    It was debated before, that you have a pool of 30 dice cards but shuffle once you have less than 10 left - to negate predictability. However once you "remove" cards out of the system you are nearly back to normal dice rolls, as the consistency advantage of the dice cards is gone. You could have ALL 1 or ALL 6 in the last 10 cards (same if you remove some cards)

  5. #25
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    2,853

    Default

    Yeah, it seems to me like that criticism is right. Here's a simpler/faster version of the dice card I proposed above:

    Dice Card

    Total Wound Marker. This card may have 1 Wound Marker total.

    End of Attack Phase. At the end of your Attack Phase, if during this turn you rolled: 5+ Hits for every Miss, add 1 Wound Marker to your Dice Card; 2+ Misses for every Hit, remove 1 Wound Marker from your Dice Card. During this turn, you may not attack with additional Units.

    Re-roll. If your Dice Card has no Wound Markers, after attacking with a Unit, you control you may add 1 Wound Marker to your Dice Card to re-roll 1 Miss.

    It may be sufficient to just have a 2-point spectrum as opposed to a 3-point spectrum. It makes it somewhat faster and more likely that the Dice Card will actually do anything.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    2,853

    Default

    I actually dislike this simplified version. Too easy to game the system. Between the two, it needs to be the three wound marker system.

    A big problem is: what triggers the re-rolls? and what is "reward/punishment" for bad rolls? Letting you choose which die to re-roll is exactly what makes you try to game the system and structure your die rolls. That sucks. So that means it can't be that you get to choose which to re-roll. And it also means that it can't be that you re-roll last roll, etc. It should probably instead be:

    - Timing of re-roll. At end of attack phase
    - Reward/punishment. remove all wounds placed during attack phase and re-roll entire attack phase
    - Triggers: abysmal rolls: 2+ dice rolled and 2+ Misses to every Hit; exceptional-rolls: 5+ Hits to every Miss

    2+ dice rolled is important so that people don't game the system with 1AV units.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    2,853

    Default

    Following the above reflections, this is the best solution:


    Re-rolls
    Once per turn, at the end of your Attack Phase, if during that phase you rolled 2+ Misses and more Misses than Hits, reset the Battlefield, Units, hands, and Magic and Discard Piles, as they were at the beginning of that phase. Then, attacking the same cards with the same Units in the same order as your Attack Phase, re-roll your Attack Phase. Keep the results of your re-rolls. Then, you may not attack with additional Units during this turn.

    Once per turn, the end of your Attack Phase, if during that phase you rolled 5+ Hits for every 1 Miss, reset the Battlefield, Units, hands, and Magic and Discard Piles, as they were at the beginning of that phase. Then, attacking the same cards with the same Units in the same order as your Attack Phase, re-roll your Attack Phase. Keep the results of your re-rolls. You may not attack with additional Units.

    This is actually quite a simple.
    Last edited by commandercool; 09-19-2017 at 07:11 PM.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    2,853

    Default

    To word it more simply:

    Re-roll. At the end of your Attack Phase, you: may re-roll your Attack Phase if during that Attack Phase you rolled 2+ Misses and more Misses than Hits; must re-roll your Attack Phase if during that Attack Phase you rolled 5+ Hits for every Miss.

    Reset. Before re-rolling, you must reset the Battlefield, Units, hands, and Magic and Discard Piles so that they are the same as they were at the beginning of your Attack Phase.

    Order. During a re-roll, each Unit must attack in the same order it did during your Attack Phase and cannot attack a card it did not attack during your Attack Phase.

    After. You must keep your re-roll results. Re-rolls are not re-rolled.
    Last edited by commandercool; 09-19-2017 at 07:20 PM.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    2,853

    Default

    For anyone that doesn't think dice are problem:
    - Waterd Gror bomb goes 6/6 to kill my one damage sunderved. He probably would have won anyway, but still.
    - same day, my friend tommybeasters goes 6/6 to one turn kill my sand wyrm while I meanwhile go 1/6 on his Thorkur.

    makes for a miserable time. And "dice even out over long run" doesn't make the specific games a less miserable time.
    Last edited by commandercool; 09-19-2017 at 08:30 PM.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    2,853

    Default

    I've tried my newest rule in a self-play and I think it's great. It's great bc: (1) can't be exploited; (2) doesn't change meta; (3) protects against extreme bad and good luck (corrects that 11% probability extreme at one end of spectrum and 12% probability extreme at other end; (4) only triggers a couple times per game, and though it takes a moment to "reset," it's still under a minute to reset, and one minute reset time to help correct dice is a price I'm willing to pay (especially when considering that we've still shaved a lot of net time off game by moving draw phase to end of turn); and (5) i'm also willing to accept cost of remembering dice (don't we all kind of keep track of this anyway?!) due to games that are more enjoyable and determined by skill. (It's also not hard to remember order of your attacks or amount of damage each unit does. Hard for a child? Yes, but not the smart community that plays SW.) This is the price of a good re-roll mechanic.

Page 3 of 10 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •