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Thread: Runed Ice Golem, comprehensive list

  1. #1
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    Default Runed Ice Golem, comprehensive list

    I still don't understand the logic of these interactions. I want to make this post a comprehensive list.

    I don't understand when a runed Ice Golem is treated as a unit and when it's treated as a wall. This is important bc some events/abilities are specific to units and some are specific to walls.

    Here are some that are clear to me:
    - Events/abilities that damage/heal walls also damage Ice Golems: Rallul's Fury of Godshome and Draw Power; Rune Mage Siphon; Oldin's Besiege the Walls; Architect's Repair; Bolvi's Strength of the Stone and Strengthen Structures. But this one is a little weird to me bc if the IG is a Wall for the purposes of events/abilities that damage/heal walls, why is it not a Wall for events/abilities that target units? For example, the runed IG can be destroyed with Vlox's Assassinate. But this is weird! It's a Wall for Fury of Godshome, but not a Wall for Vlox's Assassinate?!

    Here are some that are unclear to me:
    - Units that can move through units: can these Units move through runed Ice Golems? For example, can Cherubim move through the runed Ice Golem? I believe the ruling on this was that these units can't move through the runed IG?

    - Units that can attack through units: can these Units shoot through runed Ice Golems? For example, can JE Archer shoot through runed Ice Golem? I can't remember the ruling.

    - Trample Units: even if these Units can move through runed Ice Golems, do they damage them? It would be weird if a runed Ice Golem is considered to be a unit such that it can be moved through via TRAMPLE, but then not a unit such that it can't be wounded via TRAMPLE. On the other hand, I don't understand what it means for Ice Golem to be "considered and Ice Wall" if this means that it's not a Unit for some purposes and a wall for other purposes. Clearly a Wall can't be TRAMPLEd. But this is also weird to me bc it's clear that IG is treated as a Wall for the purpose of the move-through ability of the Cherubim but not the move-through ability of TRAMPLE/SHADOW BARRAGE? That's also weird to me.

    - Taunt, Ensnare, etc. I believe ruling was JE Archer can't shoot through or a Cherubim move through, but runed IG can be moved by these and other movement abilities/events. This is also a little strange to me.

    - Possessed Wall: can this be placed on runed Ice Golem? Is runed Ice Golem a unit for these purposes? Even if Possessed Wall can be played on runed Ice Golem, what happens to Possessed Wall if rune under IG is discarded? In that case, the Ice Golem is no longer a Wall and Possessed Wall says that discard Possessed Wall if the Possessed Wall is destroyed. In that case, is the Possessed Wall destroyed? On the one hand, the IG is still alive, but it's no longer a Wall. It's a little strange. to me.

    - Precise: Is Ice Golem a Wall or Unit for these purposes? Would the Wounds automatically be added, or does the PE player have to roll? Can the PE player choose whether to use PRECISE or roll (important if ICE FORTRESS protects runed IGs from PRECISE)? But that's weird bc PRECISE is always mandatory.

    - Makgongo POISON DAGGERS and Poison Mutant POISON STING? You can't poison a wall. Is the runed IG a wall for these purposes?

    Is there a way to systematize these interactions? Here's my stab at it:
    - Runed IG is a Wall for card effects affecting Walls;
    - Runed IG is a Unit for card effects affecting Units, with the following exceptions: it's a Wall for: (1) non-wounding move-through abilities (i.e. Cherubim); (2) shoot-through abilities (i.e. JE Archer); and (3) PRECISE (?)
    Last edited by commandercool; 06-07-2017 at 01:45 PM.

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    killercactus is offline SW App Champion Summer 2015, but still do what he says.
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    Ice Golems with a card under them are treated always as BOTH a Unit and a Wall. If an ability can do something to a Unit, it can do something to a stacked Ice Golem. If an ability can do something to a Wall, it can do something to a stacked Ice Golem.

    What you have to understand is that the fact that an ability / event can only do something to a Unit (or a Wall) doesn't mean that it can't affect a stacked Ice Golem. POISON DAGGERS, for instance, does not say "This ability doesn't work on walls" - it says "place a poison marker on the attacked Unit". Stacked Ice Golems are Units, so it works.

    An ability / event would need to say something like "this ability / event does not apply to Units / Walls" for a stacked Ice Golem to be immune.

    I think that addresses all the concerns...?
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    I would tend to agree with deathweed. I understand IG as having both the benefits and weaknesses of walls and units. Yeah maybe it's not logical for a wall to be "trampled," but only kind of, and that's not the only ability in the game that isn't entirely realistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by killercactus View Post
    Ice Golems with a card under them are treated always as BOTH a Unit and a Wall. If an ability can do something to a Unit, it can do something to a stacked Ice Golem. If an ability can do something to a Wall, it can do something to a stacked Ice Golem.

    What you have to understand is that the fact that an ability / event can only do something to a Unit (or a Wall) doesn't mean that it can't affect a stacked Ice Golem. POISON DAGGERS, for instance, does not say "This ability doesn't work on walls" - it says "place a poison marker on the attacked Unit". Stacked Ice Golems are Units, so it works.

    An ability / event would need to say something like "this ability / event does not apply to Units / Walls" for a stacked Ice Golem to be immune.

    I think that addresses all the concerns...?
    Ohh, ok, thanks KC. So just to clarify:
    - JE Archer can shoot through runed IG;
    - Cherubim can move through runed IG;

    And to put it slightly differently than you put it, the rule for interactions with runed Ice Golems is: If a card effect does something to a Unit, it can do something to a runed IG; if a card effect does something to a Wall, it can do something to a runed IG.

    @Ithamar: the problem is more complicated than that, though. Benefits and weaknesses aren't great explanatory categories for the reason that it's hard to define a benefit or a weakness. For example, a Unit not being able to move through a Wall is sometimes a benefit and sometimes a weakness, for either player. Also the problem for me isn't realism, but dual nature of the runed IGs as a Unit and a Wall. For example, the cases in my original post like a Cherubim that can move through units, not walls, trying to move through a runed IG; or the JE Archer that can shoot through units, not walls, trying to shoot through a runed IG. This was complicated by what must have been my misunderstanding about KC's ruling about how a runed IG is treated: I thought that a runed IG can't be moved through by a Cherubim and can't be shot through by a JE Archer.

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    killercactus is offline SW App Champion Summer 2015, but still do what he says.
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    That's correct - JE Archer and Cherub only talk about Units, so IGs are OK to be shot / moved through
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    Quote Originally Posted by commandercool View Post
    @Ithamar: the problem is more complicated than that, though. Benefits and weaknesses aren't great explanatory categories for the reason that it's hard to define a benefit or a weakness. For example, a Unit not being able to move through a Wall is sometimes a benefit and sometimes a weakness, for either player. Also the problem for me isn't realism, but dual nature of the runed IGs as a Unit and a Wall. For example, the cases in my original post like a Cherubim that can move through units, not walls, trying to move through a runed IG; or the JE Archer that can shoot through units, not walls, trying to shoot through a runed IG. This was complicated by what must have been my misunderstanding about KC's ruling about how a runed IG is treated: I thought that a runed IG can't be moved through by a Cherubim and can't be shot through by a JE Archer.
    The "strength/weakness" is defined by the unit/ability/event being played on or against it. I can use any of the strengths of a wall/unit willy nilly with the IG, but so can my opponent. Hence, the IG has all possible weaknesses against me. The player making the move decides whether or not the IG will be considered a unit or a wall or both in the same turn. For example, my opponent could use the Seer next to my IG, and then trample my IG on the same turn. I, on the other hand could use Rallul's ability against my own IG, and then move/attack with him on the same turn (or whatever, but you get the idea).

    All this is just how I interpret his ability wording, but I've not used him in action as you guys have, so I could be swayed either way.

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    Analytically you can distinguish. But that's not the type of loose distinction you should base a rule on, esp in SW. SW rules are bright lines not flexible standards. Sometimes it's a weakness that I can't move a Unit through my own Wall. Sometimes it's a strength bc that means opponent can't either. Therefore, using the categories of weakness/strength as a category depends on what the player is trying to do. That's completely unlike any other rule in SW--again, all the rules here are brightlines, not standards, with no need to look into the subjective mind of a SW player to determine whether an action is permissive.

    The rule isn't that the player making the move decides whether the IG will be considered a unit or wall or both. KC's ruled otherwise. It's automatic-mandatory-must, not optional-permissive-may. The buck stops at KC anyway since he's the rulemaker--no need for us to quibble about different ways to interpret wording. He's the judge and decisionmaker.
    Last edited by commandercool; 06-09-2017 at 10:42 AM.

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    and my favorite: Zealot can't attack runned Golem cause he can't attack walls.

  10. #10
    killercactus is offline SW App Champion Summer 2015, but still do what he says.
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    Quote Originally Posted by owlord View Post
    and my favorite: Zealot can't attack runned Golem cause he can't attack walls.
    Yup - Zealot gets hosed. He wants blood, and the Ice Golem doesn't have any.
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