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Thread: Real errata--master thread

  1. #941
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    Hey everyone. I was wondering if there are image files of the changed cards somewhere. I would like to add the errata cards to tabletop simulator for use there as well.

  2. #942
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    Hey,
    you can use our vassal module, where most (some?) of the cards are inside (I think). We are however very close to the end of the core testing and will then create the cards with the right text for the community testing. So we will update the main post with "pictures" of the changed cards, yes. Currently there is a bit of a summer summon break (mostly because of me) but after that we will finish the testing and hopefully start the final testing, with some help of the community.

  3. #943
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    For the proposed 'Deja Vu' on Tacullu, the wording makes it sound like the Tacullu player gets to pick which cards come out of the opponent's magic pile.
    I've been away from Summoner Wars for a while, but last I checked, the cards in the Magic pile were not common knowledge, so that your opponent doesn't know specifically what cards you've built until you spend those magic points.
    So, does Tacullu actually get to choose, or is it just the two off the top?
    I also need a reminder as to what a player can do with opponent's cards in hand. I believe Event cards can be played as normal, with the catch that many won't help a specific player due to naming specific units, but can units be summoned as normal?
    Last edited by Nukatha; 08-07-2019 at 12:50 PM.

  4. #944
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nukatha View Post
    For the proposed 'Deja Vu' on Tacullu, the wording makes it sound like the Tacullu player gets to pick which cards come out of the opponent's magic pile.
    I've been away from Summoner Wars for a while, but last I checked, the cards in the Magic pile were not common knowledge, so that your opponent doesn't know specifically what cards you've built until you spend those magic points.
    So, does Tacullu actually get to choose, or is it just the two off the top?
    I also need a reminder as to what a player can do with opponent's cards in hand. I believe Event cards can be played as normal, with the catch that many won't help a specific player due to naming specific units, but can units be summoned as normal?
    good catch. The intention is to be able to look into the opponents magic pile and freely choose up to 2 cards (since sometimes you really don't want to move any into the opponents hand)

    so I'll ask Commander Cool to change the wording slightly probably something like this

    Deja Vu. Choose an opponent. Look into the opponents magic pile and place up to 2 cards onto his Draw Pile. Then place up to 2 cards from your Discard Pile onto your Magic Pile.

    p.s. Indeed if Tacu chooses to hand a Bender unit (for example a killed champion) or a stolen event card (for example stolen by a thief) to the opponent via Deja Vu he can actually "help" the opponent, as they can just summon the bender unit or use the event card. That's why we choose the "UP TO 2 CARDS" part, so the Taculu player has the choice between 0, 1 or 2 cards that are put back to the opponents hand.

    In our test games we mostly used Deje Vu once we noticed the opponent was building magic up to a value of a champ (for example 5 or 6 magic). This way you prevent the champ for one more turn while the opponent get's card back into his hand, that he was already willing to sack.
    Last edited by jwalker; 08-19-2019 at 09:49 AM.

  5. #945
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    Hey lads we’ve been busy at work, but we haven’t been posting much because we’ve been busy at work.

    I’m just going to copy and paste some of the off thread chats because it’s faster.

    First Mal errata suite:
    CC: After more time to reflect, may be that in the matchup against Ret that Mals economy is good. The champ lineup I played is cheap (16 magic total), efficient in that it has strong abilities in this matchup for the cost and deals good damage for the cost. We didn’t even see Unify with Guards play out. Also, Malenatar always has the assassination option. Maybe that it’s pretty balanced
    J: Yeah that was my thought as well also probably it needs some time to get used to mals bow symbol

    CC: Am worried a little that if Mal can no longer consistently play offense that we’ve transformed him a bit too much and we’ve made one of the few offensive summoners unable to play offense. It’s just something to keep our eyes on. The reason is that I think there are different knobs we can change to accomplish offense that is not steamrolling.For example, maybe instead of making the positioning further away, we make that starting commander a second guard.

    CC
    - We do need to slow down Malenatar's offense. Our first testing suite proved that it was still too fast and that at least the Ret Talus matchup was broken.
    - But I think that the combination of our event suite and the starting setup we tried against Ret makes Malenatar into a midfield, drawn out, economic trading summoner. That's a design disaster. Malenatar is one of the few offensive summoners in the game. He needs to remain an offensive summoner.
    - However, we should aim to do is convert Malenatar from an early game offensive summoner into a middle game offensive summoner.
    - I dislike the reshuffle design of Superior Execution. At the time it made sense because we needed to add a buff to it. However, recycling is a bad design and we shouldn't duplicate it. Battle Procurement and original Superior Execution are not good reasons to add this reshuffling mechanic into a Superior Execution design. As we've discussed before, a recycling mechanic tends to reward long games that are defensive cat and mouse economic trading matchups. Our original design of Superior Execution is elegant (make one die result a 6), but it turned out to not be strong enough. And combining a "make one die result a 6" event with the new set up and Malenatar with the bow symbol is a big part of how we've slowly converted him into a non-offensive deck.
    - I still dislike the feel of Korbolden. I strongly believe that I won't be the only one to dislike the feel of Korbolden. We should make safer decisions in our designs. If we change Superior Execution, we don't have to worry about making Korbolden useless again because we saw that he's good with our new Sera suite. Also, while Varden and Ossa will suffer from changing our Superior Execution design, both of those champions are good enough to be played without our "make one die result a 6" design.
    - I think we have momentarily lost sight of minimalism in our Malenatar suite and I think we need to go back to that
    Last edited by commandercool; 08-29-2019 at 02:54 PM.

  6. #946
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    CC: my Mal countersuggestions

    I agree with the core drivers of our Mal designs: (1) Mal's ability has to be changed; (2) Superior Execution has to be changed; and (3) the starting setup is broken in some matchups even with a changed Mal ability and changed Superior Execution.

    - I agree that Mal's starting setup is one of the strongest in the game. I don't think the answer is to spread all the units apart. This does slow the early game, but it's a bit of a frustrating way to slow the early game. It also feels a little out of theme for Malenatar, whose Units all rely on each other. Instead, I prefer a hybrid of a Moyra and Sam starting setup models.

    - The Moyra starting setup model is to keep all the Units near each other, but to put them far enough back that it takes a couple turns to get things going. Moyra is a perfect example of a successful middle game offense design. It is not too strong in the early game, but she can still play sustainable offense. Also, Moyra's most powerful unit, the Cherub, is in the very back row.

    - What I see as the Mugglug/Sam setup model, is that where the starting commons are all relatively strong (in terms of AV and ability), to decrease the amount of starting commons to 3.

    - Applying the Moyra and Mugglug/Sam models to Malenatar, what I would like to do is two things: (1) remove the top left Aspirant; and (2) move the Commander down one to the bottom row. This does a couple things. Removing the Aspirant removes front line firepower and it makes it harder to move the Commander into action early. The Commander in action early is one of the main reasons that Mal's original starting setup is broken. If you slow the Commander's time to get into the battle, then you slow the offense. And the Commander is probably the most important piece that Mal starts with, even including Mal himself. Likewise, moving the Commander down one row, also slows him getting into the action. Moving the Commander down also makes further away from the remaining Aspirant, which again makes it harder to get the Commander into the action.

    - An alternate consideration is to remove the Commander from the starting setup and leave everything else the way it is. I don't like this option because it's a bigger blow to Mal's economy than just removing the Aspirant. And original Mal's economy, as we know, is part of the problem for his variance.

    - So that's the starting setup: remove the left Aspirant and move the Commander down one space to the bottom row.

    - My second idea is to move a version of Malenatar's ability into Superior Execution. This is a design trick we used with Amoeba Mutant and Little Meda's MD event. What I suggest is: Superior Execution. Move up to 5 Common Units you control up to 2 spaces. You may not play more than 1 Superior Execution per turn. (I chose the number 5 because it is the same number as original Mal's ability, so it is a little more minimalistic. You could reduce it to 3 though it then feels a bit like Chant of Haste. I think 5 is not OP because Malenatar has less starting units and the Commander is further back.)

    - For Mal's ability, it doesn't work to make his ability the original Superior Execution effect because it would be way too economic and it would make Battle Procurement superfluous.

    - Instead, for Mal's ability, I thought of something similar to everyone's favorite part of Mountain Vargath: Brutes.

    - There are a few ways to go with this. Give Mal the ability Knock Around. Can slap the bow symbol on Mal to make it really powerful.

    - However, because it's a bit disappointing when summoners don't have unique abilities, I'd suggest a variation of Knock Around instead

    - I'm of the mindset that summoners that are able to frequently use their own abilities.

    - I also think that Malenatar has to have a discard ability. If he doesn't, the discard mechanic feels like an utter gimmick.

    - With these considerations in mind, I make the following suggestion: Mal. Bow symbol. Superior Positioning. Once per turn, after a Common Unit you control wounds a Unit, you may discard a card from your hand to move either Unit up to 1 space.

    - For me, it's thematic. Flavor of Brutes, Mal's movement tricks, and common attack buffs like Sunderved's abilities.

    - You can do a lot with Mal's range with this ability. But what you can't do is hit and run with Mal unless you also play Unify. However, that's probably ok, as you only have 2 Unify (4 with Superior Planning), Unify needs more uses, and Sunderved has his own hit and run trick with Fall Back.

    - So that's it. A starting setup change that's minimal. A Superior Execution change that's minimal. The part that's the least minimal is Mal's ability but has tons of MV flavor (more than our current errata suite) and should be much more fun than our current vanilla-feeling Mal.

  7. #947
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    J: am currently open to changing the suit a bit, as malenatar in general looks extremely hard to handle/balance right now (strong and weak depending on matchup)

    I can see how we might transfer mal's ability to the 2x superior execution, however then a lot of the "offensive" feel will be lost. I'm not against it - but I want to point out some things here to consider and type down some random thought - then sent another message with what could be our strategy imo

    1) remove Mal's ability and transfer it to a 2x event means it's not there reliable and reusable -> you take out a huge part of the mobility which is part of the offensive advantage
    2) once the ability is not reliable, probably the starting setup is less powerful if left side units just move 1 space back (no need to reduce the unit count). This way the aspirants ability will not be as crazy in the first 2 turns.
    3) If you think korbolden was too strong, we need to change Sera -> he IS much stronger in her, as he was in Mal!
    4) I wonder if Bow + "gimiky" ability is strong enough to help out Mal in his bad MU like Mugg or Grog. Bow is huge, but we also would remove the straight power the former superior execution gave. So now he can't bypass "Vine guard" and twarters and units like Ossa and Korbolden return to be huge variance units while before the reason Varden, Korbolden or Ossa mutated into powerhouses (like rune of power on Grog) was a big part of mal's economy
    5) I think we should build in a discard mechanic upgrade into superior execution as well to either allow it to "reshuffle" or "enhance it". This way the discard mechanic has a more natural occurrence and part of mal's style can be preserved - for example: Superior Execution. Move up to 3 Common Units or 1 champion unit you control up to 2 spaces. You may discard a card from your hand to target 2 additional common units OR Superior Execution. Move up to 5 Common Units you control up to 2 spaces. You may discard a card from your hand to reshuffle this Superior Execution into your draw pile.
    6) I think Mals ability while cool needs a little more. Currently it's a bit hard to use and is not worth the one magic. I'd actually again like a hybrid of an ability that works, but then can be upgraded with discard mechanic. Something like - Once per turn, after a Common Unit you control wounds a Unit, you may move either Unit up to 1 space. You may discard a card from your hand to select a champion or summoner unit you control instead.
    7) I think it's a good idea to make unify less important than more important. Unify is bad and has way too many synergy potential - which means handclogg, variance and "it's a trap" potential. Instead I think it's a great strategy to use the discard mechanic more, to help you to NOT play unify, so that unify can be used in combo with guards, Aspirants and commander instead. Miffy little tricks, like in the superior execution would be the ideal way to go imo (no discard = 3 commons or 1 champ, 1 discard means 1 champ + 2 commons or 5 commons, unify + no discard means 3 commons/champs - so to move 2 champs you still have a use for unify)
    8) I don't think this suit will actually make me play more offensive than before, i'm not disliking it, but if I look at it i'd play a more grinding trading play style with it. But has it actually sufficient tools build it with less powerful champs and fewer straight power cards to be even good at this style? For constant pressure I don't see anything amazing left, that other decks can't do similarly good (superior execution - chant of haste, cheeta, stalking advance, relentless advance and so on / onslought, consume darkness, lightning strike, concealed weapons, hailstorm, overwork and the rest of the events are "utility events" (superior planing, unify, battle precurement

  8. #948
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    J: Re: My Mal countersuggestions
    Part 2 - the more constructive part

    So what do we do now? I'm convinced we can do great with introducing strong "discard effects" AS AN UPGRADE is the way to go for several reasons
    1) it gives battle procurement more meaning even without fielding a champ AND creates interesting decision makings once you have 2-3 really useful "discard mechanic" effects available, as only one can be free.
    2) it makes sure, the ability/effects are actually useable even if battle procurement is still buried. This is good for reliable deck performance
    3) it allows us to remove some of the clunky combos currently needed in Malenatar, this should mostly target "unify" as I want unify to be mostly reserved to "onslought, commander, guards and aspirants (already quite some uses) to also have once 2x event that can actually be build. Currently it's really difficult to build any event in malenatar if you don't plan on finishing the game early.

    On the same time, I feel we need to make sure Mal has some tools to prevail in his lesser favored matches. Again, I think a easy access "accuracy" mechanic is not a bad thing, as we need some straight power for him, that cannot be AV (due to the repetitive use via unify and the loss of Ossa's abilily - she's a base deck unit after all). As I noticed you guys have problems with automatic hits (spirit of the phoenix calls) I'm in for a Re-role mechanic, opposite of Haku - this allows some constant extra damage and we can open up access to ossa's clap. This still allows cloak of shadows and other defensive stuff to work, but adds reliability and could be build into Malenatar

    Mal: 2/7 bow: Thundering Echo:
    Once during your turn, after attacking or using an instead of attacking ability with a common unit within 2 spaces of Malenatar you may immediately re-roll a single dice and move the target of the attack action up to one space. You may discard a single hand card to instead use "Thundering Echo" on a single MV unit on the battlefield.

    (so 1 dice rerolled for attacking units, unify+ossa means ossa can reroll thunder clap once, if discard than no range restriction and can be a champ or malenatar)

    This makes Malenatar pretty powerful as midgame/lategame fighting unit if you have battler procurement. Korbolden has similar damage output as Growden or Mingle (but actually costs one additional discard :/ ) and Ossa can be boosted if necessary without that huge risk of a miss. Further, we have the build in mini knock around as basic common boost mechanic, with proximity so Mal needs to be around his commons.

    Superior execution:
    Move up to 3 commons or one champion unit within 3 spaces of malenatar up to 2 spaces. You may discard one hand card to target 2 additional common units on the battlefield. You may only play a single Superior execution per turn.

    (so you can actually move 1 champ + 2 commons with the discard and the 2 additional commons have no proximity restriction, this also means unify allows you to move a champ outside of the 3 spaces proximity if you also discard a hand card)

    Now I feel this might be ok as a suit, as we have basic common love build into the deck (1 reroll per turn = at least 1 AV, + mini knock around), some champion love which actually only makes the deck less clunky as unify is not so crucial and malenatar as a really solid powerful unit to hopefully add enough raw power to the deck. I'm still afraid the different performance of Guard+commander vs. common hate and none common hate will give us trouble

  9. #949
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    CC: Loved the ideas. Just sent back a couple elegance and language counter suggestions.

    J: Hey erik, not sire about tonight - maybe. But either tomorrow or Sunday should work.
    - As to SE (movement event) i agree it cant be comboing with onslaught. But couldnt we use my version and just add "at the end of this event Phase"? I prefer not to drag an effect into movement phase or make it an ability. Also im really fond of the idea to give a discard option for a champ, as this will release tension of the hand management and saves unify use for combo with commander, guards and aspirants.
    - As to malenatar - shockwave seems about right! I like it. The wording is very difficult and i feel your version is also still not 100% spot on. Id be surprised if i could come up with a better version but it seems not 100% clear to me (the discard part especially)

    CC: Cool cool sounds good.
    - SE. At the end of the event phase solves the Onslaught problem. But it doesn’t solve the flexibility problem. As an ability on Malenatar, SE was always during movement phase—movement phase is more flexible than Event Phase as you can move units into position and then use SE. During Event Phase, the Units cannot first move into position. But it sounds like we’re close and can come to an agreement when we talk next. As for being able to use the champ without discard, I hear what you’re saying but I just think it adds a bit more complexity to the event.
    - Mal. Cool cool, shockwave it is! I agree the language still isn’t 100%. When I’m home later I’ll try to think of more elegant ways.

    J: Mal: 2/7 bow. Once during your attack phase after you roll dice with a common Unit within 2 spaces of malenatar, you may re-roll 1 die result. Move a Unit wounded as a result of the attack.action up to 1 space.
    You may discard one handcard to instead reroll one dice result of a mv unit on the battlefield
    - I Think discard mechanic will always make the events a bit more complex (+1 clause).
    Due to 3 spaces i think im fine with mals movement trigger but we could make it 4 spaces i guess if we feel its too weak. But i like the proximity to force mal to be in the frey
    - So only with discard you can target champs

    CC: Maybe the most elegant way to write the timing and once per turn of SE is to make an ability.

    SUPERIOR EXECUTION
    Choose up to 3 Mountain Vargath Units you control. Until your next turn, each gains the following ability:
    ?
    During your Movement Phase, you may immediately move with this Unit up to 2 spaces.
    - there are a couple ways to write the movement. This is just one way
    - and then we still have to pick a discard effect

    J:
    But very weak proximity. Thing is mal is so strong early and late game, we need to make sure he cannot be hidden easily without any disadvantage. His ability is relatively mild and with BP can be circumvented. If we add discard to ignore proximity i think its fair (greater command style).
    Torodin’s Advance is not an event to compare

    CC:
    - Is it most elegant to make an ability?

    SUPERIOR EXECUTION
    During this turn, Malenatar gains the following ability
    SUPERIOR EXECUTION
    At any time during your Movement Phase, you may choose 2 Common Units within 3 spaces of Malenatar. You may discard a card from your hand to choose any other Unit you control. Immediately move each chosen Unit up to 2 spaces each.

    J:
    - Do we need ability now? We could add "once" at any time ....This way it cant be stacked right?
    Last edited by commandercool; 08-29-2019 at 02:53 PM.

  10. #950
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    So ton of posts to make up for the lack of posting.

    I wanted to show you inside the decision making to show how much we think and talk about this stuff. There were also more messages and talking, but what I posted basically shows you how we ended up with where we’re at now.

    J, I think I accurately presented everything, please post if there’s anything that should be added. I guess one final consideration we had was the Discard mechanic has felt like such a gimmick. We wanted to make it feel less like that.

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