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Thread: Real errata--master thread

  1. #101
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    The photoshop work begins.

  2. #102
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    I read both essays! Don't worry about me at all, I'm not feeling offended. I think we need these type of arguments in order for this to be fine tuned properly.

    You make valid points for both cases. The Marek changes you have right now, if that is how Marek was released in the first place, then I agree that they are better events, more thematic and fun. I only brought it up because it is quite a big change compared to most of the other summoners you are working on, and I'm wondering if there is a simpler way to fix her. If there isn't, then I am fine with these changes if they do prove to be more fun and balanced.

    I would argue that lots (not all) of the weaker summoners are considered more fun and thematic, and lots (not all) of the powerful summoners are boring, annoying, simple and less thematic to play; and so if you are changing a weaker summoner like Marek to make her stronger and more fun, then shouldn't the same be considered for Tacullu and company? I'm not saying jump right on this and replace all magic drains, mimic, reinforcements, etc. in the game, but rather consider this errata to be long term and we fix all summoners who need it so that they are more fun to play with and against. That is what my personal goal is with my group's "errata"/house rules project.

    Back on the whole unit stat change thing. You acknowledge the change to Baldar's cost hurts Bolvi as much or more than Oldin, but you are hoping your changes to Bolvi offset this and then some. Those are fine intentions, and I think the changes to Bolvi might do this, but it can only be proved through lots of play testing. At first glance I would say with the Bolvi changes and the cost increase to Baldar, Bolvi goes up in power; but by how much? Disregarding Oldin, if you leave Baldar untouched, how much does Bolvi go up in power with his changes? Is he closer to the power level we are all wishing he was? I'm not claiming to know any of these answers, I'm just putting the questions out there.

    You say that he is almost (probably is) an auto-include in any Bolvi deck, and so changing Baldar makes you consider other deck building options (which was the main reason I devised my champ cost table in the first place, because I love deck building and diversity). This may be true for Bolvi and Baldar, but, for example, when you change Soul Eater in the way you have, Sneeks/Frick with prisoners and Soul Eater is no longer an option. So diversity just got worse there. Same with Dinky, as I don't see Marek summoning an 8 cost champ. I realize you don't have a lot of Champ/common changes in the plan so far, so I'm not attacking these changes and saying they are wrong, but just pointing them out.

    Also, (just to stir the pot a little more!) I notice that you are taking OP champs and trying to make them worse, but nothing has been said about taking unused champs, like Halvor and making them better. Is that a way to help with balance? They are unused anyways, so if they are buffed to fit the deck of a certain weaker summoner, then it won't really effect the other summoners they can be used with. Just throwing it out there.

  3. #103
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    I'm very sad to live with the crappy intercession, but ok.
    Maybe the divine strenght should look into draw pile?, what he is reanimator Sera now?.
    Maybe that would make it so that is not strong enough,and we still need buff intercession

    I don't know how i feel about the new soul eater, it's hard for me to predict it's power and effect.

  4. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by commandercool View Post
    Thanks again for your post! Can I can get you to join the spring vassal tournament?
    Thanks commandercool. Admittedly I've never tried to play on vassal before. I'll look into it since it would be interesting to try out.

  5. #105
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    We're back in business folks! Lots of updating to do, please continue to check the original post. I'll get back to you on your comments shortly.

    I'm also proud to announce prometheuslkr as the Lead Playtester of this project! He's very intelligent, a very experienced and skilled player, very passionate about this game, and has been around for a very long time. And yes, that's a lot of "verys." He's going to do a great job. He will also assist with other aspects of this project such as design and project scope. He's already assembled an excellent cast of playtesters of some of the very best players including Waterd (I believe), owlord, and Marcin.

    Waterd, prometheuslkr, and I are all working very hard to bring the best product to you. We're messaging furiously, having robust discussion and argument ranging from choosing which cards to errata, the exact changes to the chosen cards, the scope of this project, method, etc. Rest assured, we're working carefully and analytically on this project. We're putting the final touches on preliminary errata, and the preliminary errata will be ready for the vassal tournament.

    Speaking of which, go sign up for the spring vassal tournament! And please continue commenting!

    Best,
    commandercool
    Last edited by commandercool; 04-05-2017 at 01:30 PM.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBurg7 View Post
    I read both essays! Don't worry about me at all, I'm not feeling offended. I think we need these type of arguments in order for this to be fine tuned properly.

    You make valid points for both cases. The Marek changes you have right now, if that is how Marek was released in the first place, then I agree that they are better events, more thematic and fun. I only brought it up because it is quite a big change compared to most of the other summoners you are working on, and I'm wondering if there is a simpler way to fix her. If there isn't, then I am fine with these changes if they do prove to be more fun and balanced.

    I would argue that lots (not all) of the weaker summoners are considered more fun and thematic, and lots (not all) of the powerful summoners are boring, annoying, simple and less thematic to play; and so if you are changing a weaker summoner like Marek to make her stronger and more fun, then shouldn't the same be considered for Tacullu and company? I'm not saying jump right on this and replace all magic drains, mimic, reinforcements, etc. in the game, but rather consider this errata to be long term and we fix all summoners who need it so that they are more fun to play with and against. That is what my personal goal is with my group's "errata"/house rules project.

    Back on the whole unit stat change thing. You acknowledge the change to Baldar's cost hurts Bolvi as much or more than Oldin, but you are hoping your changes to Bolvi offset this and then some. Those are fine intentions, and I think the changes to Bolvi might do this, but it can only be proved through lots of play testing. At first glance I would say with the Bolvi changes and the cost increase to Baldar, Bolvi goes up in power; but by how much? Disregarding Oldin, if you leave Baldar untouched, how much does Bolvi go up in power with his changes? Is he closer to the power level we are all wishing he was? I'm not claiming to know any of these answers, I'm just putting the questions out there.

    You say that he is almost (probably is) an auto-include in any Bolvi deck, and so changing Baldar makes you consider other deck building options (which was the main reason I devised my champ cost table in the first place, because I love deck building and diversity). This may be true for Bolvi and Baldar, but, for example, when you change Soul Eater in the way you have, Sneeks/Frick with prisoners and Soul Eater is no longer an option. So diversity just got worse there. Same with Dinky, as I don't see Marek summoning an 8 cost champ. I realize you don't have a lot of Champ/common changes in the plan so far, so I'm not attacking these changes and saying they are wrong, but just pointing them out.

    Also, (just to stir the pot a little more!) I notice that you are taking OP champs and trying to make them worse, but nothing has been said about taking unused champs, like Halvor and making them better. Is that a way to help with balance? They are unused anyways, so if they are buffed to fit the deck of a certain weaker summoner, then it won't really effect the other summoners they can be used with. Just throwing it out there.
    Hey Kburg, just went back and read this and you made some really smart points. Prometheuslkr helped convinced me to come back to minimalism, and I also turned Marek over to him. As a result, reason and basically your argument won out and those Marek changes were gone (and the Farrah revamp). I'm glad, in some ways--those types of revamps still appeal to me, but that's a different project from this. You're absolutely right about how far the "fun" argument goes--it cuts both ways for weak and strong summoners. We're still working on the exact contours for how fun and minimalism fit together, I think. For example, Intercession wins out over Divine Strength in Sera because it's less change. On the other hand, Waterd designed the Interecssion card and was able to add some more fun to a summoner that is really bland.

    You're right again on champs affecting every summoner that can play them. We've somehow synthesized, a variety of competing principles. Minimalism and effect on balance are the "flashlight" principle, helping us ascertain which card or changes we should make. But other principles also are integrated, such as deckbuild diversification and non-negative play experience, theme, etc. And all of these competing values are in play when we argue and discuss the exact change to make.

    You make an excellent point about underused champs. This needs to be in our toolbox, too. One example of it at least, is Corpse Wyrm, a change that will likely only impact max power of Mad Sirian. That's an area we make look at more, and thanks for pointing out that tool to us.
    Last edited by commandercool; 04-06-2017 at 12:39 AM.

  7. #107
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    I like that you are trying to change Mimic. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on my version of it...
    "take the top most event from your opponent's discard pile and put it in your hand. If there are no events in their discard pile, you may search their Magic Pile for an event and place it in your hand."

    I feel like the version you have right now, while still better than original Mimic, seems too easy for the opponent to play around. Basically 90% of the time Tacullu will just be getting a card to put in his magic pile because the opponent will just play an event that is faction specific.

    Even my version seems like it might be kind of easy for the opponent to "choose" what card Tacullu gets through the playing of Mimic, but at least Tacullu isn't revealing Mimic before hand, so there is a little bit of surprise.

    Comparing your version to mine I'm not sure which is more powerful. Your's helps with hand clog and guarantees Mimic will get Tacullu a Magic at the very least, but opponent has more control of what event Tacullu gets. Mine, hand clog is a little bit of an issue, but only until opponent plays their first event, plus there is still the chance that Mimic whiffs if you play it hoping to steal an event out of opponents magic if there aren't any in discard. Mine, also a little harder for opponent to "choose" what event Tacullu gets. This can be adjusted by saying "choose any event card in opponent's discard pile" instead of "top most event".

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBurg7 View Post
    I like that you are trying to change Mimic. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on my version of it...
    "take the top most event from your opponent's discard pile and put it in your hand. If there are no events in their discard pile, you may search their Magic Pile for an event and place it in your hand."

    I feel like the version you have right now, while still better than original Mimic, seems too easy for the opponent to play around. Basically 90% of the time Tacullu will just be getting a card to put in his magic pile because the opponent will just play an event that is faction specific.

    Even my version seems like it might be kind of easy for the opponent to "choose" what card Tacullu gets through the playing of Mimic, but at least Tacullu isn't revealing Mimic before hand, so there is a little bit of surprise.

    Comparing your version to mine I'm not sure which is more powerful. Your's helps with hand clog and guarantees Mimic will get Tacullu a Magic at the very least, but opponent has more control of what event Tacullu gets. Mine, hand clog is a little bit of an issue, but only until opponent plays their first event, plus there is still the chance that Mimic whiffs if you play it hoping to steal an event out of opponents magic if there aren't any in discard. Mine, also a little harder for opponent to "choose" what event Tacullu gets. This can be adjusted by saying "choose any event card in opponent's discard pile" instead of "top most event".
    I second this, this mimic version removes the element of surprise.

  9. #109
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    My comments on the changes:

    Freeze is way too weak. if we are making it work for a turn only then, please remove the option of paying to remove it.

    I did not understand this change in Mel> "22. Out of Shadows. Out of the Jungle. "During this turn, add 1 to the Attack Value of a Common Shadow Elf Unit attacking an adjacent enemy Unit if it began this Event Phase with no enemy Unit adjacent to it. During this turn, add 1 to the Attack Value of a Common Jungle Elf Unit attacking an adjacent enemy Unit attacked by another Unit this turn. You may not play more than 1 Out of the Jungle card per turn.""

    are these 2 different events? I am confused.

    Mimic: I prefer Kburg mimic idea.

    Fury of godsome: I still feel it is too strong, but Pome told me it is ok, lets see during testing.

    I am not hapy with forcing the exclusion of all mercenaries, I understand from waterd that the project is not balancing based on mercs, which is understandable, so I think just leting people know that mercenaries can be included at your own risk would be enough, instead of banning them from everywhere else.

    Please take all my comments in a possitive and constructive way as I am one of the most interested persons in the world to fix this game, I have tried many times but it has been proven difficult to agree. Now you have achieved havinf waterd and prome working together, which gives me hope.kudos to you.

    Most of the other changes I am happy with, thanks for taking the time to do this for all of us Commander!

  10. #110
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    Thanks for the comments and feedback!

    First off, I think Waterd's Mimic is brilliant. As for Kburg's, it's too strong, still, and we're nerfing Tacullu. The greatest problem with Kburg's is that the counterplay to avoid having Tac take your best events is much harder. Bc, while in both you can do an inefficient double event play (to avoid the first being taken), that's not quite as true with Kburg's. Here's why: the Tac player would take to holding his Mimics, then play back to back or back to back to back in order to get your Greater Burn, Fury of Godshome, etc. Choose any event is discard is way too strong, however, and there's no counterplay whatsoever (except, hold in hand, which isn't really a viable counterplay)--at least current Mimic has a counterplay, as bad as it is. As for the length of text on the current event, we've gone through many drafts--I think the awful wording rules of SW force this long wording. But don't be thrown off: it's quite simple. Nevertheless, I will continue to try to shorten the text.

    Freeze is weaker but not weak, and Grognack needs the powerdown. It still hurts to pay 2 Magic possibly 3 times, especially only for one turn. And this greatly cuts down on the NPE aspect of Freeze. Our original thought was without the pay to remove, it would be too weak, but Waterd and Prome decided that was probably actually a buff (for example, your Jujugara or best champ frozen 3 turns in a row and you can do nothing about it, so he's dead). I think this is one that Prome and Waterd had a big discussion about. So the cost remains for now, and we'll see in testing.

    Out of the Jungle is not 2 different events. But it has 2 conditions, and you can get the boost for both. This is a slight buff, as Jungle Shadows Commons can attain the +2. This is a card that Waterd and I put a lot of time into. We've thought through many different ways to try to boost Melundak. In the process we also want to incentivize deckbuild diversity, especially with his JS commons which are largely bad. This is the largest way to diversity deckbuilding (while retaining viability of the JE and SE commons) without it being an overt "+2 to common Units w/Jungle Shadow faction symbol." Moreover, there's precedent to gie different boosts to different halves of an alliance in the FP events. As for the name, the event could never grant Selundar's ability because that would be insane with Blade Masters. Therefore, because it did something different, it made no sense to have the same name, and since we're already changing it, it makes sense to change the name, too. As a x3 event, this is a great place to do something for Melundak. I'm continuing to look for alternatives, but this is what we have now.

    As for Mercenaries, I'm sorry, but we're not balancing on mercs. For a justification, the primary one is that mercenaries create big balancing problems. One of several examples is Khan Queso against Sneeks or any other summoner that needs to utilize lots of low-life commons and have several on the board at the same time. In addition, an often overlooked sub-point is that the threat of such a unit in any build forces sub-optimal builds that affect the power of that summoner. Another problem is that just banning Rallul units is the type of assyemtrical rule that we don't have precedence for in SW. In addition, that makes it so Glurblub has less summoners to deck build with than any other summoner, and for the sake of consistency, Farrah doesn't have a second "summoner" unit's to deckbuild with. If, however, you think the benefits of a different rule outweigh the costs, you're welcome to make that fleshed-out argument. In addition, you could choose to not follow our mercenary rule. If you are looking for a physical errata card to not have that rule, unfortunately you will be out of luck, unless you can make an extremely, extremely convincing argument.

    Thanks for your feedback! No worries that I won't take your comments in a positive and constructive way. As for this project, I just ask that you trust our process. We have several very smart minds working very hard on this, and we're internally arguing back and forth, with a robust decision-making process before any of the decisions come to fruition. Moreover, the very best players that will be testing these cards.

    It's true that we can't please everyone at the micro level, in regards to to the exact units to change or changes to make. But we will produce balances, and vassal files and physical cards bringing the balances to life, and that is our goal. So I ask that you trust in our process and our final product. I think you will be quite happy even if you would have personally done something differently. That said, please keep posting!
    Last edited by commandercool; 04-06-2017 at 10:37 AM.

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