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Thread: Real errata--master thread

  1. #311
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    Final, Hogar.jpgFinal, Zuggdin.jpgFinal, Rules Card Supplement.jpg

    - Zuggdin's ability can't be in conjunction with Hogar's. Zuggdin like a failed experiment bc of complications but useful bc of it. Hogar's is much better because simpler and unifies his deck and removes oppressive matchup for Natazga.
    Last edited by commandercool; 04-27-2017 at 04:17 PM.

  2. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by commandercool View Post
    Post 2 of 2

    Final, Hogar.jpgFinal, Zuggdin.jpgFinal, Rules Card Supplement.jpg

    - Zuggdin's ability can't be in conjunction with Hogar's. Zuggdin also like a failed experiment bc of complications. Hogar's is much better because simpler and unifies his deck and removes oppressive matchup for Natazga.
    I've been thinking on precise and how it screw both Sneeks (and Vlox) out of an important protective event. Maybe instead of having cloak of shadows and Goblin invincibility make the roll requirements to wound higher, you could give them a good chance to ignore wounds (like Sybil Swancott). Seeing as to the magic cost for CoS on Champs/Summoners and the central-ness of Goblin Invincibility have them ignore each wound on a 3+?

    Goblin Invincibility: Until the beginning of your next turn, whenever a cave goblin unit you control would receive 1 or more wounds roll a die per wound received. On a result of 3 or higher, ignore that wound.
    Cloak of Shadows: Choose a common unit you control, or spend 2 magic to choose a champion or summoner you control. Until the beginning of your next turn, whenever this unit would receive 1 or more wound markers, roll a die per wound received. On a result of 3 or higher, ignore that wound.

    This way the cards with precise wouldn't have to be changed. I changed it from 2+ to 3+ since I realise that this wording would protect the gobbies and Shadow-cloaked from damage from other sources as well.
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  3. #313
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    Thanks Syurt! As always, thanks for following, reading, reacting, posting!

    I'm fine changing Cloak of Shadows to operate the same as Sybil's ability with a roughly equivalent chance of wounds. Just know we won't test this, an include at your own risk. The reason is I won't add extra work for the playtesters (current Vlox change is one we won't specifically test for), and I can't justify playtesting bc Vlox is not problematic underpower. It is however, a change that I really like. But I have to hold to the principles of this project.

    The rule change on Precise is just a new ruling on its interpretation, doesn't actually require changing the cards with precise. I have to admit I'm a little wary with how that ruling may affect Heavy Knight interactions. But that's Sera... Sam and Moyra will benefit, but I think just marginally. Elien for example, uses his SOTP on champs, not HKs and doesn't care about Precise units otherwise. Maldaria, does however care about her precise units somewhat with the event +1 to Precise units. Not familiar enough with Maldaria, however, I still have to think her best plays for those events are against enemy champs, not the HK units. Fire Archers no doubt will hurt a little. But those units suck, and though she gets use out of her starting ones, I think she likes her PE Warriors and other units more.

    Goblin Incinv, no change necessary. Sneeks requires more than just Sybil's ability to be protected in his oppressive matchups. That's why he needs Stout and at least 3 of them.
    Last edited by commandercool; 04-27-2017 at 05:58 PM.

  4. #314
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    The one Unit I'm still super worried about is Dinky. His statline was a problem, but we haven't made Sandstorm + Taunt + Mirage summon impossible. I really dislike that. It's a cheat code, extremely oppressive to low-health summoners. And neither Krusk nor Scraven need that help. I think when we're honest with ourselves, we know that we can't justify letting that live. Krusk's change to Sandstorm to not be able to move summoners isn't enough.

    There's a way to fix it to at least remove that dumb Krusk play, while keeping the spirit of Dinky massive AV alive, and not harming Marek or Scraven really (though Scraven's at probably absolute top end limit for summoner that's not problematic power).

    Final, Dinky.jpg

    What does this mean? Dinky can't be pushed by Sandstorm if another Unit was pushed first by Sandstorm. Dinky can't move during movement phase if another unit moves first. So you can still mirage summon + taunt + sandstorm dinky into a spot. But you can't do that while also sandstorming opponent units first. And if you sandstorm any opponent unit, Dinky can't move that turn. And yet, in Marek and Scraven, it's of little consequence: (1) you can just move Dinky first on your turn very easily; (2) Scraven has a couple tricks to help Dinky if you want to move other units first, like Sand Blast and Strong Wind; and (3) Marek is completely unaffected as long as she moves Dinky last on her turn, as she can still use Dinky for what she wants to use him with, that is Greater Sneak and Blitz.

    It also keeps with the SG tradition of negative movement abilities: Biter, Sand Wyrm (ok, it's only partly negative). It's also thematic, "Thing moved. Can't move." Memorized. He just watches, despite any summoner effort to make him move. Thwarted by his own simpleton nature.

    EDIT: only problem I see is that this means he can't be knocked around. Hm. On the one hand, he's huge, so it's maybe ok he can't be knocked around by Brute/Urick or pushed by Kynder. On the other hand, it can be "fixed" with a revision of the second sentence to, "During your turn, Dinky cannot be moved if another Unit was moved this turn."
    Last edited by commandercool; 04-27-2017 at 06:30 PM.

  5. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by commandercool View Post
    EnterMatrix and I played an exhibition game Nikuya Na v. Hogar. Won't say who played who, but Nikuya Na won. As many NN games, they turned on Satara and Gargos Cheetah plays. The game would have been different and Hogar highly likely would have won if not for those plays.

    First, a Turtle + Cheetah + Spirit of Batman Gargos moved adjacent to Hogar to really push Hogar to one side of the board. A lot of Hogar Defender play and the 3rd wall placement helped protect Hogar from Gargos for awhile. But then out comes 7 space Cheetah Girl Satara and gets next to Hogar, rolling 1 Shadow Barrage die on Hogar. Hogar surrounded. Hogar slays Gargos next turn with Oath Sworn (?) + Hogar + Rune of Power + Rune of Hero. Hogar manages to stick Satara in spot with Defender then move away. But Hogar's mortally wounded at this point, I think 6 damage (we're playing errata Hogar with 7 health). At some turn before, Nikuya Na had summoned a Rhino + Spirit of the Jungle + Spirit of the Cheetah to get Rhino up near Hogar. Nikuya Na doesn't have enough magic to discard Runed Hogar and Runed Hogar + Defender fail to take down Rhino. Rhino kills Hogar for Nikuya Na win.

    The game would have been very different had Cheetah not allowed Satara to move so many spaces and hadn't allowed Satara and Gargos to move through units. Hogar would have won. And then EnterMatrix and I were chatting. We realized that Nikuya Na's problems aren't just Jujugara or Nikuya Na at 7 life. It's also that Nikuya Na has 3 insane champs. And they're all extremely efficient in his deck. We came up with the following idea that I'd like feedback for:

    Spirit of the Cheetah. Choose your summoner or a Jungle Elf Unit within 2 spaces of your Summoner. Until the end of this turn the chosen Unit gains the following Ability: CHEETAH'S SPEED. When moving with this Unit during your Movement Phase, you may move it up to 5 spaces. When moving in this way, this Unit may not move onto or off of any cards.

    Pros:
    - Removes Gargos + Spirit of the Bat moving through units + Cheetah play
    - Removes Satara + Shadow Barrage dice rolls from 7 movement spaces + Cheetah play
    - Removes Satara + Shadow Barrage moving through units + Cheetah play
    - Removes Satara + moving 7 spaces + Cheetah play
    - Removes Miti Mumway Trample (not really played in NN) + Cheetah play
    - As a result, Satara and Gargos remain good champs in NN, but then NN just has 2 good champs and 1 insane champ (Jujugara) as opposed to 3 insane champs.

    Cons:
    - Removes Elephant + Cheetah play. REBUTTAL: Well, why is this a bad thing? Yes, makes a common less good in NN...BUT the counterpoint is that this makes commons much better against NN! The balance in favor of commons favors removing the Elephant + Cheetah play. And as we all know, one of the main reasons that defender's advantage exists is the bias against tempo units (commons) in favor of efficiency units (champions). So removing Elephant + Cheetah play allows for (at least some) better aggression against NN. Moreover, Elephant + Cheetah is extremely oppressive in decks that need to play more common heavy. Also, NN likes his Hyenas, Rhinos, and JE Archer, a little more than Elephants anyway, though he'll use Elephants in some matchups. And Elephants remain a good anti-common unit.
    - Tones down NN aggression: REBUTTAL: there's little counterplay to Cheetah + Satara, which is EXTREMELY oppressive to aggressive/forward summoners (think Sunderved, Sirian, Glurblub) and low health summoners (iElien, Queen Maldaria). Also, NN can still play very aggressively, just no longer has such ridiculous tools. Besides, Melundak has that clause in Track and Track is still good, and even this Cheetah is objectively better than Track.
    - This removes something fun. REBUTTAL: yes, well, the main objective of this project is balancing and competitive fun, not just mechanical/look and feel fun.

    This would be considered perhaps in addition to Jujugara change.

    To put it in a neat little package: what I see as the biggest roots of Nikuya Na's problematic power, in terms of order:
    1. Has 3 insanely powerful and insanely efficient champs. Jujugara statline (cost and/or health) alone is efficient. But add his ability and NN's Spirits and he's insanely powerful and efficient. Satara ability alone is efficient and powerful. But add to NN's Spirits and also insanely powerful and efficient. Gargos is appropriately costed. But add NN's spirits and he also becomes insanely powerful and efficient. And then you add that you're able to use all together...Any other faction would be happy with just 1 of these guys.
    2. Cheetah + Trample/Satara Shadow Barrage. In terms of across-the-board power, Cheetah + Trample isn't as much of a problem. But in terms of specific matchups, it and Satara's Shadow Barrage extremely oppressive. In terms of across the board power, Satara Shadow Barrage is a problem and has little counterplay.
    3. Cheetah + Spirit of the Bat. Even when not combined with Turtle, very, very, good. But add Turtle and very very VERY good. A decent amount less problematic than 1 and 2. Because there's more counterplay.
    4. Nikuya Na's 7 health. Least problematic. But still partly so.
    feel you are overreacting to this game. it's true that cheeta is a bit over the top but one can deal with it. I'm looking at your game and I read that you couldn't stop units from reaching your summoner, even so you had defenders. you weren't been able to gain mentum, even so the opponent lost his gargos in an assassination attampt (paying 10 cards for him as least with batflight and cheeta). So I have serious doubts in your strategy in this game. Did you try to play the eco game? Hogar should be the one creating the momentum its a rush deck!
    lately you went away from the "least changes possible" attempt and went back to "would be nice/ I think that's boring" card changes. I don't like it!

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    I just typed up an entire post and the thing cleared on me. Darn everything...

    Take 2:

    I have not been paying too much attention to this thread, so if what I say here is not relevant to the conversation, ignore it.

    If we are trying to make GI immune to PRECISE, maybe something like this:

    Goblin Invincibility
    - Until the beginning of your next turn, Cave Goblin units you control may not be wounded by any means other than attacks with a die roll of 6 or higher.

    This also makes them immune to BURN and other abilities, and it stays true with the card's idea.



    Hogar needs to be able to gain some other benefit when using STOCKPILE. He doesn't have enough game play effects that help him with that, and placing cards on your deck is generally a bad thing. I would recommend something like adding to his attack, removing up to three wound markers from a wall he controls would be cool. Something like that.


    That is a much lazier post than my first one, ehhhhh, anyway...
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  7. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwalker View Post
    feel you are overreacting to this game. it's true that cheeta is a bit over the top but one can deal with it. I'm looking at your game and I read that you couldn't stop units from reaching your summoner, even so you had defenders. you weren't been able to gain mentum, even so the opponent lost his gargos in an assassination attampt (paying 10 cards for him as least with batflight and cheeta). So I have serious doubts in your strategy in this game. Did you try to play the eco game? Hogar should be the one creating the momentum its a rush deck!
    Great post jwalker, great post. Long post ahead.

    Lol, you've forced me to reveal. I played NN, not Hogar. I’m revealing only bc I don’t want the force of my arguments to be undercut, that I’m overreacting because of frustration from playing against NN.

    It’s possible I’m overreacting. But every top-level NN I’ve played as/against, Cheetah with or without Turtle + Satara/Gargos/Juju is the big-time play.

    The problem is that as NN, I won the early game in the midfield against Hogar. I actually think Hogar struggles once he falls behind or when he fails to be the one to control tempo. Once that happens, it can be hard to get Rune Smith machinery going, and is expensive when you need to instead build cheap commons so you can still afford to get that first champ out for your counter. I had momentum as NN—and NN never really loses it once he gets it. And once he gets it, Rhinos and Gargos/Satara/Juju + Cheetah is so, so difficult. (Btw, I also think the opponents that can't play catchup/rebound/rally, are probably also extremely good matchups for NN, probably something like 7-3 among equally-skilled players, and in large part to Cheetah--which helps solve replenishment problem, an unmentioned part of its value).

    My reaction isn’t to total power. It’s to the oppressiveness of these combinations. In some matchups, that Cheetah + Satara/Elephants is very, very, very oppressive. I’ve played this Sneeks matchup and been wrecked. Sneeks doesn’t have any great strategy that doesn’t rely on playing lots of commons unless it’s to sit back, not summon, and hope opponent suicides himself on Sneeks’ walls and to Horde. It’s also very oppressive to Sirian. Or to common-heavy decks. Max-build Moyra has big trouble. There are probably a couple others, too. Maybe Brath? Max-build Sunderved. Probably Saturos. Many summoners that like commons also have max-champ strategies, but for some, their power can drop off significantly. In short, my argument is that there is hardly any-to-no counterplay for some matchups against the Trample or Satara Cheetah. I don’t see the counterargument to this point.

    If it’s an argument that the best I’m doing with this is just tinkering with matchup problems, I just say this: (1) I’m not saying this should be the only change to NN, meaning that I don’t think we only need to change matchup problems against NN, but also that we DO need to fix overall power problems; and (2) SW is ALWAYS a game about matchups, it doesn’t make as much sense to talk about a summoner’s power in a vacuum; and as I’ve said before, the more important thing than a summoner’s across-the-board win % being balanced is that that summoner also isn’t winning something like 80% in some matchups (which is what I’d guess is something like NN’s matchup against Sneeks, Sirian, maybe others: and I attribute these matchup problems PARTLY to those summoners having generally low power, but ALSO to NN having REALLY oppressive stuff against them).

    But there is this additional argument: the biggest source of NN is his champions. His economy works by investing into his champs, powering them up. His powerups are incredible. But the champs that he can power up are also incredible. And the synergy between the powerups and the champs is incredible. For NN, it matters little which champs he draws. Obviously Juju has the top-most power, but Satara and Gargos are incredibly powerful, too, with the powerups, and he’ll win many games summoning just those two, without Juju, for example when Juju is bottom-decked. The biggest powerup problem for those two is Cheetah. Yes, it’s SUPER fun! But Dinky as is is SUPER fun, too! Point is lots is super fun, but super fun doesn’t mean it should be in the game or wasn’t a mistake (or rather, the later designs of Satara + Gargos were what broke NN).

    Though Juju is greater power clearly, Satara (and Elephants even!) is much more oppressive in certain matchups. Gargos is not a problem for oppressiveness (I’m sorry if I’ve said otherwise, unnecessarily complicating my argument). Gargos, the point is just that he gives NN another incredible option. He’s not oppressive. As for 10 magic, not as big of a problem for NN: 10 magic investment isn’t all equal. There’s difference between 10 magic invested into commons than investing it into champs and powering up those champs. And big investments into champs generally pays off really well for NN, perhaps better than any other summoner. Only other analogue I can think of is Malenatar, but no one currently things Mal has the kind of power as NN, and his powerups are harder, so it’s not a perfect analogy.

    Beyond the oppressive matchups, however, the current SOTC is the strongest possible incentive to wall your summoner into the corner, turtle as hard as possible, and to not play any commons. That’s a really, really, really, bad consequence.

    My view is that the best changes aren’t necessarily turning the knob down on the most powerful thing a summoner has. It may be the case that that thing also should be turned down. But if possible, the knobs should be turned of the most oppressive thing that is also a pretty big source of power in a way that can either accomplish in whole or in part the power level sought for the summoner. More concretely, Juju or NN health is not necessarily the best knob to turn. Juju’s INSANE, but if the rest of the deck level is ok even with INSANE Juju, then it’s fine. I’m not making this argument with Nikuya Na, because Nikuya Na’s power is already good. The argument isn’t about turning Juju OR Spirit of the Cheetah.

    I reserve the right to change my view (as always), but my argument is about Spirit of the Cheetah v. Nikuya Na health. Nikuya Na is just a small top power adjustment. Moreover, having more summoner health keeps summoners near the thick of things (a good policy!) and especially in NN, where it’s required for him to be forward to play aggression well (which we all want! By the way, I want aggression, but I want it to be balanced and not matchup oppressive). Nikuya Na health does NOT remove that matchup oppression, like SOTC. And, SOTC nerf is at least as strong of a power nerf as removing 1 NN health, probably stronger. And as you pointed out before, we probably actually needed more than just -1 health for NN and Juju.

    Like with any of my arguments, I’m receptive to argument. Rebutting any of my premises or my ultimate conclusion with reasoned premises. But I’m not seeing enough about how SOTC actually isn’t matchup oppressive. Just want to know that while I disagree with you (any maybe a big part of your disagreement with me is based on thinking that I was the Hogar player, played bad strategy, and maybe I don’t know have enough experience—that’s why I cleared up that I was NN player), it’s with the utmost respect. I know you’re smart, a great player, have been around a long time, and have thought about a lot of these things. Just looking for some more counterarguments to my above premises before I’d be willing to change view about Cheetah.
    Last edited by commandercool; 04-27-2017 at 09:59 PM.

  8. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwalker View Post
    lately you went away from the "least changes possible" attempt and went back to "would be nice/ I think that's boring" card changes. I don't like it!
    Sorry, I know there have been a lot of posts. The vast majority are experimental brainstorms, fresh ways to go about things, and think about things, but never even considered. Many are failures, but I post anyway bc something can be learned even from a failed experiment. For example, Zuggin a couple posts ago. Some there’s no chance in hell they’d be official for this project. For example changes to all 3 Melundak commons. MAYBE (though highly, highly unlikely) that 1 of those commons changes would be implemented. Same goes for any change to a common because they take much more playtesting work and are more irresponsible because it’s harder to predict and control the way they change the meta.

    That said, I think it’s great that you’re calling me on moving away from “least changes possible,” lol. After the previous paragraph, which do you think I’ve gone overboard on?

    - My change to Goblin Rush? That actually is more minimalistic and goes further than the alternatives I’ve seen suggested. This is less brainstorm and more of a change I will make post-tournament. But I haven’t seen counterarguments to my argument.
    - My re-ruling on the interpretation of Precise? That’s no physical change to a card, just a re-ruling, is a more intuitive interpretation, helps Sneeks, removes stupid Wraith + Precise interaction, doesn’t add any more cards to the errata list. It’s possible that it’s not the most responsible change since if affects summoners we’re not going to place a microscope on for testing. But I don’t really see a flaw with my reasoning. This one is also a brainstorm.
    - Hogar Stockpile? Just a brainstorm, Prome has to approve, but Hogar probably needs more than +1 HV. +2 HV is out of the question, I don't want to give him a 3/7 statline bc Dwarves don't have 3AV. Therefore, ability is the natural target. Esp because his ability is the worst ability the games. The fact that this helps Natazga in a matchup that's super awful for Natazga is a bonus.
    - 7 HV to Bolvi? I think I make a good argument there.
    - Siege Upgrade replacement to Destabilize? The original concept of Destabilize doesn’t work well for Bolvi, and things that work well with Bolvi while also being a substantial power upgrade don’t make sense with the name Destabilize.
    - Cloak of Shadows? This will not even be “official” for our project. That said, I don’t mind “producing” it for use if everyone understands that and everyone understands it’s outside scope of project, that we won’t test, it’s use at your own risk, etc. I can’t justify touching Vlox to help Vlox. We’ve only touched Vlox to help Marek, a summoner on our list.
    - Dwaf? Ulfric? Those are brainstorms. Highly likely not usable. Ulfric is more tenable for lots of reasons. And an added 1 I didn’t list: doesn’t ruin Ulfric anywhere: he was never going to be played in Oldin seriously anyway. But I think we already have enough knobs to turn between Hogar ability change for Hogar and for Bolvi, Bolvi statline, and Destablize change. That said, Ulfric would likely add power to Hogar and Bolvi and clear it wouldn’t add power to Oldin.
    - Explicit concern for oppressive units/events? That’s been here from the beginning. A huge reason Heroic Feat was one of the knobs turned for Oldin. Again, also please see my arguments about why we NEED to focus on oppression.
    Last edited by commandercool; 04-27-2017 at 10:27 PM.

  9. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncleeurope View Post
    I just typed up an entire post and the thing cleared on me. Darn everything...
    Lol, it would be a great troll-move start every short post with this preface. Even if no intention to write a long post. That said, BLAST. Like jwalker, I highly respect all of your points. You’re considered one of the best players around and post very thoughtfully.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncleeurope View Post
    Hogar needs to be able to gain some other benefit when using STOCKPILE. He doesn't have enough game play effects that help him with that, and placing cards on your deck is generally a bad thing. I would recommend something like adding to his attack, removing up to three wound markers from a wall he controls would be cool. Something like that.
    Hm. I really like both of these. Extra AV is always powerful. Thematically, I like how it’s kind of a flip side of the coin from Zuggdin. Removing wounds from walls is cool and doesn’t change how Hogar’s played: players still won’t attack his walls, and IGs still get something from Hogar’s ability. Then again, players don't attack walls now anyway. However, it would be nice with IGs, and I'm all about boosting commons (as long as they're not anti-common like Elephant, which IGs aren't anti-common) bc it promotes pace/momentum/offense. Those starting IGs could go a long way this way. And those ones you could get for free w/Vognar (made easier via Stockpile) are better. And though 1 AV melee 2 cost units, better when you know you're often going to get anywhere from 2+ to 3+ extra health. The more I think about Wall-healing, the more I like that as the effect.

    But are any of those factions that struggle w/Hogar rush problematic underpower? maybe a wash bc IGs lose 4+ w/Runes, and 4+ Rune of Shielding. AV to Hogar will be better for Hogar end game...wall-healing will be better early and mid game...Wall healing not oppressive for Nat bc she's not really about destroying Walls, but opportunistic assassination. Obviously better to destroy walls, but still. Still less oppressive for her.
    Last edited by commandercool; 04-28-2017 at 01:29 AM.

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    Maybe there's a different common-support that can help Hogar and Bolvi: TORDOK! Just change his ability to be within 2 spaces and 4 cost. Same SSCF as Baldar. Is Oldin really going to use that? But again, this is just a brainstorm. I think Hogar and Bolvi will be fine after the changes, so it won't be necessary.
    Last edited by commandercool; 04-27-2017 at 11:17 PM.

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