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Thread: Real errata--master thread

  1. #951
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    So far we really like the new Mal suite. Very fun, very thematic, can still play strong offense, is no longer steamroll frustrating for the opponent (which is good).

    We’re just polishing it up. We also have to slightly modify the set up as it’s broken against Ret Talus and summoners with similar weak starting setups and mediocre or worse summoners as fighting units.

    We’ve tested against Mugglug and Ret Talus so far. As I’ve alluded to, the Ret Talus game is better than the original, however, it’s still broken in Mals favor so we’re working on a setup change for Mal. The Mugglug game was originally terrible for Mal, and our testing so far is that the matchup is fixed.

    Some cool interactions with Mals new ability/statins:
    - buffs Korbolden
    - commanders and unify+Onslaught are stronger on Mal now because of his bow symbol.
    - the base commons seem to benefit the most
    - Ossa can re roll her ability which makes her less variant
    - Bellor! He can re-roll his ability and also push an enemy unit during the enemy’s turn! This is really cool, as Bellor was a bit mediocre and now he can do something REALLY cool and unique that is very dangerous in Mals deck. To do this you’d either have to play unify and have him within 2 spaces of Mal or you’d discard a card.

  2. #952
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    Hey guys, i think the main stuff is covered. While i think its quite a wall of text and my hasty messages have even more type/spelling mistakes than usual, it's maybe a good idea to showcast how complex some of these errata project processes are.
    Im very optimistic with the current result on malenatar, ending to be a balanced, unique and fun summoner that does not only has this one "bash or fail" stragey anymore.

  3. #953
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    heyhey,
    I just realized there is indeed one part missing. After we designed malenatar, I was worried about the ability to shoot from 3 squares and then being able to push the enemy unit 1 square. We came up with a much less problematic version and added a feel of "knockaround" and "aspirant ability". I don't have the exact wording here, but maybe commander cool can provide it for us

    Malenatar: 2/7 bow
    Shockwave: once during your attack phase when a common unit within 2 spaces of malenatar rolls dices, you may immediately re-roll one dice and move an adjacent unit 1 square.
    You may instead discard a card from your hand to re-roll a dice result of a unit you control.

    Now the idea is, that malenatar benefits from attacks of common units and he needs to be close to them (like Sundaved). Not only can you reroll one miss per turn but also push a unit (friend of foe) to do a mini version of the knockaround or to move an adjacent unit up one space for other combo play. With discarding a hand card you can target any unit instead, even malenatar but the ability is still limited to once per turn.

  4. #954
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    Ice and Vine Walls cannot be affected by any card effect an opponent controls
    Just for clarity, the intent of this rule is to mitigate things like Destabalize, right?
    I just played a fun (non-errata) game Hogar vs. Torgan. In it, Krom was enjoying targetting opponent Runed Ice Golems with Ice Shatter.
    The way the text currently reads, Ice Golems become immune to all manner of effects as soon as they become walls.
    Also, is the text meant to prevent things like Precise from affecting vine/ice walls?
    I think the rule should be rewritten slightly:
    Ice and Vine walls may not the target of any card effect an oppponent controls that refers to ordinary walls.

  5. #955
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nukatha View Post
    Just for clarity, the intent of this rule is to mitigate things like Destabalize, right?
    I just played a fun (non-errata) game Hogar vs. Torgan. In it, Krom was enjoying targetting opponent Runed Ice Golems with Ice Shatter.
    The way the text currently reads, Ice Golems become immune to all manner of effects as soon as they become walls.
    Also, is the text meant to prevent things like Precise from affecting vine/ice walls?
    I think the rule should be rewritten slightly:
    Ice and Vine walls may not the target of any card effect an oppponent controls that refers to ordinary walls.
    Hey,
    Yes it was intended that runed ice golems also gain immunity to many effects. The reason is that it first helps the minor walls and simultaneously buffs the ice golem.

    Runed ice golems are currently pretty weak, tjey are really bad if nit runed (1melee 3 life and no ability for 2 magic). They become still pretty underwelming once runed, considering the rune is also a card and could be played on a champ unstead. The fact they are nit horrible in hogar is only because hogar (not the ice golems) has an ability that makes them a bit better. We decided to make the golem worth its cost even in other decks, which immensly helped bolvi as well.

    Krom got a nice buff in our errata torga and that trick you used would still partially work. You can target an enemy runed golem/ice wall and use kroms ability on it aftwr an attack. If you hit you can still deal damage to adjacent units, however on a miss you cant deal damage to an opponents ice wall/runed golem. If two runed golems are next to esch other, kroms ability cant affect any of them.

    See also heavy knight and the faq to the unit, same interaction
    Precise works as usual, as the effect buffs the attacking unit and the affect on the target is still an attack (nit a card effect) see heavy knight here again. Precise does not work on walls or ice walls due to precise text (states units)

  6. #956
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    Malenatar is finished!

  7. #957
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    Apologies for the short and sparse updates in recent months. Things have really ramped up at work for both of us, I think it’s fair to say. Quick shout out to Lcanela for helping when he’s able, too.

    We’ve started Sam and Tundle. The plan after finishing them is to do Saturos and...I think...Ellen.

    A quick note for why we finally chose to do Sam. He’s a bit like Abha Shi: just not a reason to play him and right at the border of being too weak. With a buff to Sera, there was no reason to ever play Sam. He wasn’t distinct enough to play over Moyra, and sure bet he was nowhere as strong. Sams weakness is a little different than Abua’s though: I think it’s larger from one dimensionality and predictability.

    So far we’ve played the Sam v Ret matchup. The first few games seemed great for Sam, because his starting setup is so strong. After that, I think we developed strong enough strategies for Ret that it feels pretty balanced. For Ret; largely he needs to survive the early steamroll attempt by Sam. As long as the draw doesn’t go too poorly (something like 2-3 early champs, all event draws) Ret can eke it out in the late games. But Sam has some neat assassination tricks so Ret has to be careful. So Sam really has a couple win conditions: (1) early steamroll; (2) mid to late game assassination. And the economy is not soooo disparate that Sam can’t compete at the end. Ret definitely has an end game advantage but a couple of terrible dice turns for Ret and great tur ns for Sam might equalize the economy. So, overall, feels pretty balanced.

  8. #958
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    Wording suggestion:

    Current:

    Baldar. The first time during a turn that an opponent rolls at least 1 Hit and 1 Miss when attacking Baldar, Baldar receives no wounds from that attack.

    New: The first time Baldar would be wounded by an attack, if a miss was rolled, Baldar receives no wounds from that attack.

  9. #959
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    Quote Originally Posted by lcanela View Post
    Wording suggestion:

    Current:

    Baldar. The first time during a turn that an opponent rolls at least 1 Hit and 1 Miss when attacking Baldar, Baldar receives no wounds from that attack.

    New: The first time Baldar would be wounded by an attack, if a miss was rolled, Baldar receives no wounds from that attack.
    Hey thanks for the imput. I see your confusion and I agree our current version sounds a bit technical. I would suggest a version that is very close to the original and your proposed text that has exactly the same effect but might be easier to understand for players that already know Baldar's current ability

    Baldar:

    Shield Block:
    The first time on a turn (1), when Baldar would be wounded by an attack (2) and your opponent failed to roll a Hit on each die rolled (3), Baldar receives no Wounds from the attack (4).

    So each part covers the necessary clauses
    (1) once per turn and mandatory
    (2) only triggers if the attack would actually wound Baldar (so it's not used up after a total miss)
    (3) condition for shield block
    (4) result from shield block

  10. #960
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    Heyhey,
    want to give a small hands up from our project. First of all, we are still on it playing a huge amount of games. With Malenatar we had a lot of difficulties and it took us quite a while. That's why we also wanted to do a small "rest" on Sam instead of going for Tundle and potentially Saturos, which will probably be complicated. But first things first, we finished Malenatar and I wanna give you my impressions on the suit

    Malenatar (see first page for the changes):
    Original Malenatar is kind of a fun and unique deck, that was designed to be super fast early on and well suited for an all out rush. While we thought this is actually cool, it is problematic that a variety of summoner decks loose on turn 2-3 of the game on a regular basis and without a perfect draw are even powerless to prevent the loss in any way (we kind of re-winded and played all possible moves/card opportunity and still got the same results for some games). This is especially bad if Malenatar gets a superior planning or superior execution in the first hand. A prime example here were Dema or Ret.
    Then on the other hand, if the rush did fail or was no option (vs. Mugglugg or Grognak for example) the deck's fall back strategy was totally build around a huge huge Onslaught + Unify turn. With some experience it's actually pretty easy to play around it making Malenatars late game terribly weak. So we had a guy that did perform phenomenal vs. certain decks and horrible vs. others, a rather problematic situation in our opinion.

    Since the goal of this project was to have best possible balance for ALL matches, we decided to change Malenatar to be better suited with his secondary strategies, while also weakening the "all out rush". We thereby wanted to use the opportunity to add more common support and Varguard feeling to the deck, similar to the original summoner Sundaved.

    1) We removed the starting commander, as it made the early game vs. certain factions extremely difficult to handle (especially decks without common hate or direct damage events), while other decks could deal with it much easier.
    2) We gave Mal the range symbol to make it easier to involve the summoner even in later phases of the game (hidden economic boost)
    3) We gave Mal an common based ability with proximity to ensure a "leader playstyle" similar to sundaved, which added unpredictability and a buff to common play.
    4) We changed superior execution to cover the movement tricks that Malenatar's original ability had. This still allowed for great combo play, pushes and assassination moves in later phases of the game but without destroying your economy as much as in the original deck.
    5) Discard mechanic has a smaller impact on the deck, but we ensured that it still has it's place. With Ossa and Korbolden both profiting from Unity + Malenatars ability the most, Battle procurement is still a great event.

    -> In most matches Malenatars early game was still great, but with some sacrifices it was much more doable for the opponent to actually survive the early game phase. During midgame Malenatar was good at controlling the board center but eventually transitioned from common play into champions to mount a strong finish with "unity" + guards in the late game. Occasionally we also finished the game earlier with unity + superior execution (movement event) via assassination. Mal's ability has several uses that allow for cool combos similar to Sundaved's Brutes but also rather creative attacks, by pushing own units instead.

    vs. Ret: Often Mal was able to put huge pressure early on, sometimes even winning at the start of mid game. Sometimes Ret defended but needed to build too many essential cards to use his superior late game power. If Ret could defend well AND could pull of his healing/economy tricks he could win in the late game. We very fine with the result

    vs. Moyra: a huge slug feast. usually Mal needed to pressure Moyra early on, before she could set up her feared "crusader + Cherup + Guards setup" that demolishes everything with "change form into a commander". Malenatar often could clear the early setup and then control the midfield into an exciting mid/late-game. These were very cool games that also felt surprisingly balanced

    vs. Elein: We usually saw that Elein while under pressure, could deal with the early game pressure relatively ok. This is mostly due to how direct damage and precise can easily deal with commons + guards. However, with so many assassination tools available and brute's knockarounding your own ranged champs the play was much more even. A combo of pressure and assassination thread/play yielded great success for Mal, once in super late-game Prince Elein often had an edge.

    vs. Mugglugg: That was a terrible hard nut to crack. Ensnare totally disrupted any guard play, which made the common play nearly unplayable, while the remainign event set could not compete with Mugglugg raw power (events and efficiant champs). We therefore added the reactive clause to superior execution to help out in matches with movement tricks like "Ensnare, Taunt" or placement effects like "Shifter or Lun". That actually helped a bit in this matchup. The final strategy that we were relatively successful was based on heavy champion play + unity + guards, holding "superior planning" to negate a possible ensnare that would disrupt the guards. That match was still in slight favour of Mugglugg but we felt it was in an acceptable range.

    vs. Vlox: Poor poor 1 AV starting units got snacked by Malenatars superior early setup. But by not killed them of yourself and instead sacrificing them to buy time Vlox could eventually stabilize and use his stealing and trickery to slowly work his way back into the game. As usual Renegates were a substantial part of Vlox success. In many games Vlox however could not hold on to all his tricks during the early to mid game phase of the game (for example needed to build "Raid" or thieves) which allowed a regrouping Malenatar to come back ahead in the lategame with a Strong champ force. In other games Vlox still managed to get his important unit setup out (for example Fink/Kyria + Admiral + Renegates) and pull of most of his tricks, to slowly work down Malenatars forces. Interesting matches, very technical.

    That's it for now, once we have Sam finished I'll give an overview and write about the Tundle changes

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