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Thread: Champion balancing project

  1. #1
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    Default Champion balancing project

    This project objective is to balance champion magic cost only to keep FAQ available.

    The current balance is:

    FACTION COST -1 COST +1 COST +2
    Sand Goblins: + 2 Stink(4) Biter(5) Dinky(8)
    Guild Dwarves: +2 Dwaf(4) Gror(8) Baldar(6)
    Deep Dwarves: + 0 Piclo(6) / Deep Troll(6) / Sprog(5) Kynder(6) Lun(6)
    Jungle Elves: +2 Jujugara(9)
    Mercenaries: +4 Rygos(8) / Urick(8) Etch(6)
    Benders: +1 Sorgwen(6)
    Cloaks: -1 Dagger(5)
    Fallen Kingdom: -2 Dragos(4) / Corpse Wyrm*(5)
    Phoenix Elves: -1 Fanessa*(4)
    Cave Goblins: +0 Scagg(3) Mook(6)
    Cave Filth: +2 The Soul Eater(8)
    Swamp Mercenaries:+2 Turt(7) / Prong(5)


    (*) recently updated
    ? Draft / advise welcome

    Help & remarks are welcome.

    Summoner balance:
    https://www.plaidhatgames.com/sum_fo...mmoner-balance
    Last edited by Batou31; 04-29-2018 at 08:31 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Batou31 View Post
    This project objective is to balance champion magic cost only for a tournament I will organize soon.

    The constraint “magic cost only” is because this is the easiest way for me to patch cards.

    We will play all factions except alliance and (CL / JE / FL / ME).

    (Note: Changing the champion cost, has also an impact on the summoner balance. )

    My Idea:
    1. - Cost + 2: Baldar(6) / Lun(6)
    2. - Cost + 1 Gror(8) / Sorgwen(6) / Biter(5) / Rygos(8) / Bragg(7) / Mook(6) / Dinky(7)
    3. - Cost – 1 Scagg (3)/ Piclo(6) / Rahlee(3)
    4. - Cost – 2 Raechel Loveguard(3)


    Your help & remarks are welcome (even for factions I don’t use)
    It's tricky... Bragg isn't bad as is in Torgan, or Gror in Bolvi. 3 cost Rahlee seems awesome in Maldaria, and 3 cost Rachael pretty damn good in a Light deck.

    Dinky needs more than just a change in cost, like the 7 base AV we normally play on Vassal.

  3. #3
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    First, I agree with all of yours except
    - Bragg. Would leave as is. Is annoying BUT, Grognack who benefits most from isn't top tier.
    - Rahlee is fine in Maldaria. Annoying that she's unusable elsewhwere, though
    - Raechel in light deck is decent, so I won't change her cost.
    - Dinky. 8 or 9 cost.

    I also think:
    - Kreep, a 5.
    - Turt, a 7.
    - Soul Eater, 8.
    - Prong, 5.
    - Jujugara, unchanged, 9.
    - Depending on your Etch rules (whether you allow outside of Mercs), he should be at least a 6.
    - Dwaf: 3 cost.

    I think those are many of the OP/UP champs.

    Gror not a problem anywhere besides Oldin, but he's still worth an 8 cost summon in Hogar, and I think you adjust for maximum potential.

  4. #4
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    Ok thanks Commandercool & grojaejin for your reply.

    I know it’s tricky and the perfect balancing is not reachable. The goal is to create champion variety within faction.
    Regarding your comments:
    Dwaf (3) KO
    • I understand, but 3 MP seems low (cost of a Rhinoceros), I would say 4MP. They are only few champion at 3MP cost.


    Bragg (AS IS) OK but
    • But I think Bragg is usable only with Grognack. So increasing Gragg has no impact on Torgan. My problem is, Bragg is always played in Grognack deck.

    Rahlee (AS IS) OK but
    • She is still weak on Maldaria, as Greter flight is a movement bonus but the phoenix heroic flight is an antagonist constraint to be efficient.  I never use her in Maldaria deck.

    Raechel Loveguard (AS IS) OK But
    • as I’m not playing with alliance I will keep the bonus, but here I cancel it.


    Etch(6) OK But ...
    • .... This is an Etch murder because he is boring no?
      Don't you think Ech(5) is enough?


    Gror(AS IS) KO
    • is OP as he is the only champ who can theoriticaly damage 12 distinct Units (and walls) with 2 dices each .
      Walls or units cannot block his attack.
      So he is on the same level as a Kadros / Miti Mumway / Hydrake. His added value should be being an "anti swarm/ common/wall" champ and no more just "a super champ".
      Currently for the same price you have .... a deep troll ...


    I would like also to get your comments on
    • Deep Troll( 6)? The unit I've never seen on battlefield.
    Last edited by Batou31; 02-21-2017 at 05:43 PM.

  5. #5
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    You make good points and as you point out, proper balance isn't exactly reachable with some of these abilities. Another thing to point out is that champ variety isnt Exactly the same as balancing.

    - Dwaf: 4 is maybe balanced, but I don't think he'd be used there because he's still so much worse than Grungor, Grundors Tower in Bolvi, Thorkur, Saella in Olson. 3 feels unbalanced and it probably is but it seems the only way to get someone to consider Dwaf. DWafs ability is hard to balance in a champ.

    - Bragg: extra 1 cost is maybe fine if the goal is just champ variety. But Bragg actually mets Grognack 3 max magic. So I'm not sure just an added 1 will cause anyone to not play him there. Maybe. I agree Braggs only usable in grog

    - You're right on Rahlee. She's unusable as is in Elian. I guess you can decrease her cost by 1--problem is that increases champ diversity when you play Elien, but not Maldaria--she really becomes a must there. The problem is really the Phoenixs. I think it's a case where you choose diversity in Elian or maldaria. Waterd argues Maldaria is quite good on defense and if you do that I think Rahlee is already good. But 1 cost decrease doesn't break Maldaria bc she's not great in the first place.

    - Etch. I don't think so: under SSCF he's a 0. So hes already good value: even 1 use of his ability nets you +magic. Hype don't have to use it 4 times to get a magic advantage. Of course SSCF and magic advantage is all relative to opponent anyway but... Also, he's the best action starter beyond Tundle and Owl. So I think +2 in cost is justified. You may disagree that's ok, but I think cost must be increased bare minimum by 1

    - Gror. I agree this is the right way to think about his attack value. And that's not to mention Heroic Feat. His ability is too unbounded. He needs a slight ability restriction really. I think he's much better than Miti mumway, Kadros, and Hydrake. I think he's maybe Jujugara level insane, but not as insane as Dinky.

    - Deep Troll. I've rarely seen him played. Have used him maybe once. Vitoy who play she Deep Dwarves quite well or someone else better than I am with the deep Dwarves is more qualified for an opinion. SSCF he's -1, so underbalanced. On the other hand, his ability is below average to quite bad against all but the Swamp Orcs or Torgan or someone that Runes IGs a lot in Hogar or Bolvi. Also, he's a 7 cost but a 2AV which stinks. There's some value in Deep Dwarves to having 7 health bc they didn't have a lot of beef--but that's mainly irrelevant now due to Gem Golems with or without Deep Dragons. Theoretically he had more health, but you have to attack a wall and why do that when another unit is attacking him? I think Kynders current stat line is appropriate as a 2/5/5. But I don't think you said anything about adjusting health, so I guess all this given these considerations, for champ diversity I'd say hes appropriate as a 2/7/5 for a +1 SSCF. For balance though I'd give him a 6 cost.

    - I've been thinking that Kynder is also more of a 7. How is it he was originally costed for 5? And Deep Giant a 7? There must have been a switcheroo. I know probably not.

    - Urick I think is an 8. Same health as Hulg. Far better ability (not that Hulgs is bad but Uricks is amazing esp on a champ). I think Uricks more appropriately a -2 SSCF at 8 cost and not a -1 at 7 cost

    - Duggle I think should probably be a 6. His ability is so excellent. Throwing 4 dice against commons is great against many rushes and can be used for other purposes like getting to the summoner opening up something to another side on a champ and other combos. A lot of people would protest but I think in bad faith. He's super, quietly amazing. And upping his price, people would be protesting a proper valuation of a "hidden gem" (at least to casual players) that's currently exceptional value.

    - KReep. I originally misunderstood your project as balancing not as diversifying champ play, which is more about predicting how people will value units. Kreep properly balanced is arguably a 5. But in order to diversify play, I think he should be left as a 4 while Biter is upped to 5. That may cause players to make interesting choice about which to play. Keeps ability I think needs an adjustment I think he should cost 5 but his ability should trigger when adjacent to a champ or 2+ commons
    Last edited by commandercool; 02-20-2017 at 12:16 PM.

  6. #6
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    Thanks Commendercool
    I will clarify the goal in the first comments. My logic is
    • If a champion is systematically played: Maybe he is OP.
    • If a champ is never played: He is surely UP.


    So
    • Dwaf: 4
      • Dwaf is a GD so opponent walls are in danger yet. The synergy is obvious already

    • Kreep 4: OK

    • Duggle: as is (5) bc
      • Blur costs 1MP
      • Is available on common only
      • Currently there are no Duggle everywhere in App.

    • Urick 8: OK
      • I've never played Urick, I know he is OP because of Oaf. So OK 8.

    • Kynder 6: OK
      • DD champ are the one that need the most a balance.

    • Sprog : what about 5?
      • He has good stat but Restructure costs 1 MP and is useless.




    So currently 9 Factions are not concerned by champ balance PE / MV / FK / VG / FL / CL / SE / SO / TO .
    Last edited by Batou31; 02-21-2017 at 09:37 AM.

  7. #7
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    If Dwaf could attack a wall *through* a card, like Tentacle Mutant, that might be cool.

    Restructure just needs to lose the restriction, which was designed before the massive proliferation of advanced walls / alternative summoning methods / conjurations.

  8. #8
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    Yes Gojaejin, you are right.
    I don't understand the restructure restriction and Dwaf should be better with a kind of small range attack .

    But I'm not able to work on a SW customization project.
    (and a lot of very good proposals exist yet)

    The scope of this thread is "Champion balance only" even it may look insufficient.

    So I do my best within this constraint.
    Last edited by Batou31; 02-22-2017 at 08:45 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batou31 View Post
    Yes Gojaejin, you are right.
    I don't understand the restructure restriction and Dwaf should be better with a kind of small range attack .
    The Restructure restriction against your own walls on opponent's side made sense in a meta where vine walls were the only way to get advance summons. And then there were...

    - SE Hunters, which felt frustratingly OP in some matchups,
    - Rallul and his Channeled Summon
    - Ice Golems
    - Invaders
    - Drek (not a wall, but addresses the "pinning" aspect)
    - Sand Drake
    - and more!

    At this point, there's zero reason to restrict Sprog from placing a cool advanced wall.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by gojaejin View Post
    If Dwaf could attack a wall *through* a card, like Tentacle Mutant, that might be cool.

    Restructure just needs to lose the restriction, which was designed before the massive proliferation of advanced walls / alternative summoning methods / conjurations.
    Another I like is that structural analysis lets you attack diagonal walls.

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