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Thread: Out of curiosity, who designed the new second summoners?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterd View Post
    Maldaria is one of the best defensive summoners in the game, with a very poor offense, if you had to do something to help her offense, what would it be? I think i would make conjure phoenix to work on any unit, not just maldaria. So putting a fire dancer in the frontline has an actual threat.
    Basically, Phoenixes were never part of my draft; adding units that did not count toward the deck size ran counter to the concept. The very earliest versions of the deck featured a "Precise Thrust" unit instead of Fire Archers, that were 1/1/1 R units that essentially gained "precise" when attacking adjacent. Passion was a +1 AV when attacking adjacent (might have been common-limited), to synergize with that unit, guardians, have 2 AV Firelings, etc. Might have made the PE Warrior OP, but they already were. By giving her 5 life, I probably relegated her to be defensive, but the whole idea behind the deck, as hinted at with Kaebeeros (who was supposed to be a big Cerberus/Hellhound), was to burn though your deck as quickly as possible and put lots of pressure on. Save the Queen was theoretically to be used to have her run up and kill something and put something in the spot left by the dead unit, but it probably could have been handled better, or even given a shorter leash or a Sunderved-style "have her on your enemy's side" clause. I like the idea of Release the Hounds attaching to other commons or champions rather than just Maldaria though, rather than the phoenixes. Doesn't really matter now though.

    Quote Originally Posted by commandercool View Post
    This is awesome thanks jex.

    I don’t mean to cast any negativity towards anyone, just want to validate you:
    - I don’t like Maldaria Conjure Phoenixs. To me its clunky, inefficient, complicated, and defensive;
    Yeah.

    - Abua was an awesomely well balanced summoner even though he’s not the strongest;
    - Vlox was always tricky to balance bc Spy was so swingy
    Originally Raid was a 1-of but it affected all of your thieves. It was brutal! And Spy was a 2 of that grabbed 3 cards at a time- one to discard, one to top, one to bottom. It was randomly insanely good. I like how Spy and Raid work now, but I'd have preferred it if Cloak of Shadows only took 1 Magic to use on Vlox or Champions. Much, much later I saw someone suggest that Dagger be a 3/6 for 6 with just a 2-die backstab- I think that would have been awesome, and a very easy house rule or errata to use!

    At the time of release of those 7 and 8, I thought the tiers looked kind of like this, with the left one in each category being strongest. Keep in mind this is shortly after the Thorkur errata, so I might have judged him lower than his real power.

    A: Grognack, Elien
    B: Oldin, Abua Shi
    C: Sneeks, Vlox
    D: Sera, Ret-Talus

    My goal was to put stuff in that B/C range, thinking that the top and bottom were hard to mess with. I used Oldin and Abua as kind of my gold standard. Or perhaps even something like this represented my views, before it became apparent that Vlox was nerfed a little too hard toward the end of testing:

    A: TO, PE
    B: GD, JE, CG, CL
    C: VG, FK

    There was something kind of strange going on at this stage, where "assassination" victories were often seen as too tough to defend against because at that point it was so out of the norm for the "everyone generally moves 2" world of Summoner Wars. If Vlox and Abua had been tuned a bit differently, the game itself might have been quite different. But Ret would have been absolute trash for a long time.

    - Natazga is AWESOME. My favorite summoner by far. If she were produced at the time of master set there would have been less complaints about SW being Turtle Wars. Also, the Trophy event is clunky—if she’d have had Glurblub Spore Carriers or Swamp Dominion instead she’d be quite strong. She’s definitely the SM summoner and Glurblub the SO second summoner.
    Thanks! She originally had some kind of "circle of death" event that was very similar to one of those Glurblub events. My early idea for how to use the "under-cards" was to create some kind of "tribute" event that pulled cards from under units and put them into your magic pile. Would mess with Scavengers, Reapers, etc... too. Even a stealth blerg fix. But that was pretty cheeky and would hurt Torgan and Bolvi for no real good reason.

    - Hogar should have had less restricted or more rune and/or better statline. He’s always been a far more interesting Grognack to me in terms of raw powerful units. I love his interactions with the wall adjacency Units (Ulfric, Grok) and now Invaders;
    Yeah, originally there were all kinds of shenanigans like nullifying Ugg or Blagog, more runes on Hogar, etc. I admit that it (and that entire alliances master set) must have been really tricky to balance, especially since there were so many great champions to put runes on from previous releases.


    What were some of the early Torgan events that were too strong that didn’t make the cut?
    It wasn't so much his events as the timing of Torgan's own special ability. I kept popping in and seeing Torgan either randomly brokenly good or struggling to win. He had some insane Tundle/Dema style defensive ability at some points in time.


    ...I'm still daydreaming about SE + CG. When I've kicked around ideas for Alliances, that one keeps coming up. As does FK + CG. I'd have liked to see some kind of "waif" in Cave Filth that both sides could move through; ever since the original Fighter and the Frick units I've loved the idea of CG units with double edged specials. It could fit in CG/SE too. For CG/FK I'd love a 1/1 for 0 skeleton warrior with Magic Locked.
    Last edited by Jexik; 03-14-2018 at 12:20 PM.

  2. #12
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    I also think the conjuration mechanic was completly unnecesary, and i wish it never happend.
    Doesn't really matter now though
    It matters to me and a few people CC is working on a fan made errata, and im making a similar errata workong on more units.
    Im working on replacing CUES but also working on other fixes of my own.
    One of those is maldaria, i have a complicated case wtih maldaria beause its a summoner that is extremly strong vs summoners that lack a magic engine, but one of the weakest summoenrs of the game when the opponent has a magic engine. so im trying to find tweaks to improve his offensive wtihout making his defense any stronger.
    I really like your idea of making release teh hound attaching to any unit! in fact i think i will go with that.
    Last edited by Waterd; 03-19-2018 at 09:26 AM.

  3. #13
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    Hey Jex, what was Maldarias other event before Conjure Phoenixes? Thanks!

  4. #14
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    In a very early version, I think I wanted a "Raze" event that would do 5 damage to a single wall. It might have had a stipulation, like you had to have a unit next to a wall or something. I don't think it ever even got as far as testing. Too Guild Dwarf-y.

    Otherwise, I don't think there was another event! I think the event counts were just different. I think it was 2x Release the Hounds, 2x Wrath of the Volcano (and it had no cap on card use, so you could blow up any champion you wanted to, RtH --> WotV was a thing. Again something like that might have been okay if it were designed to bust turtles with a leash or forward position restriction). 3x Passion, 2x Lava Flow. Or maybe it was 3x Lava Flow. Lava Flow as a concept was designed to mimic Grognack's zone defense and allow you to continue pressuring by having your own walls clean, but I don't think it was a good idea. Too punitive to low life commons. Release the Hounds was originally a CUE, and we took out that stipulation when we decided to remove as many CUEs as possible.

    The idea with RtH and WotV was to draw cards and spend them quickly. You didn't necessarily have to summon the firelings, they could become volcano fodder. And maybe Lava Flow could just become like Draw Power. Put up to 3 wounds on a wall, draw that many cards. You can summon this event phase. Something like that. Malenatar had a similar theme with card discards, so maybe this isn't the best idea. I don't want cheesy ways to get the cards back though.

    The other thing i didn't like about Phoenixes was the Rahlee patch within them. To me you don't need to fix underpowered things, especially if they're expansion content that isn't in a base deck. This was part of a continuing trend to have really complicated wording on cards for some weird corner case buff to old stuff, which is just weird to me. If you want to buff Rahlee, I thought the simplest way to do that would be to just buff Rahlee - give her an Errata that's pretty easy to do at home, like change some of her numbers.
    Last edited by Jexik; 03-21-2018 at 12:31 PM.

  5. #15
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    I think one of the main reasons Maldaria is so defensive is Lava flow. lava flow is her most powerfull event and is very defensive. The moment you go offense you lose Lava flow, which cripples maldaria significantly.

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