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Thread: Tried 4 of 8 New Summoners

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheuslkr View Post
    I definitely don't feel that way, but that's certainly a limitation of any expandable game where old sets don't rotate out. Those of us who stuck around the whole time got to learn each new summoner as they were released, and for me it's rewarding to get to the end of that and have a strong strategic grasp of 40 different summoners. But for someone trying to join the game now, or someone trying to get back into it after a really long hiatus, I can see it being frustrating. If you ever want to try playing on VASSAL, I'd be happy to play with a limited pool of the new summoners so you can get to know their capabilities and strategies.

    You're definitely right that the 2nd wave (the last 8 first summoners) was even more turtly than the first wave, with the addition of infinite magic as opposed to the simple, CUE-based champ-heavy play of Elien & friends. It's funny as someone playing with all 40 summoners to hear you call the first wave aggressive though. With the complete removal of CUEs in the third wave, I think we got some really fun aggressive, common-based summoners (Samuel Farthen and Frick are both outstanding examples), enough so that we now consider the 1st wave summoners to be turtles. The alliances decks were IMO not as inspired, but maintained the general emphasis on common-heavy, CUE-free aggression. It was only with Meda, Scraven, and Farrah that we got back to fundamentally turtley decks. If the first wave is what you consider "aggressive", I would say that you'd consider about 3-7 of the new 24 summoners to be turtles (3 by design, 4 more if everybody plays Etch in Glurblub and Owl Gryphon in Brath/Endrich/Shiva). Really not bad compared to 4 out of the first 16.

    With some basic house rules (Rallul's units are "Mercenary faction" units that only merc summoners can use, Dinky is 7AV) the game is easily more aggressive now than it was when the Master Set came out.
    Eh, the first wave is by no means entirely aggressive. But back in those days I at least felt I could make good pushes forward with many of the factions, and at the very least none of the original 8 factions had ways to just generate magic while turtling--to me that is the real design flaw that emerged in Summoner Wars. With FL, DD, MR able to generate near infinite magic while sitting on their butts, well that fundamentally ruined things. Before that the only ways to get magic beyond what your deck provided was going to be from killing stuff on the board to earn it. So even if VG just wanted to sit back and wait for the opponent to come at them, I could perhaps bring out a ranged champ and just fire at the VG walls waiting for them to come to me. And while it may have taken many rounds to bust through, the VG at least aren't doing anything in the meantime to improve themselves. But if I try the same against DD suddenly the DD get rewarded with like 4 magic generated from Tundle. That was really bad for the game.

    Not to mention though that some of the first 8 could really do well for themselves in terms of being fairly aggressive and pushing forward. TO, GD, CG, JE are all factions I generally would do this with. Also as a quick aside I can tell I left the community after the first summoners since I still refer to factions when discussing matchups and stuff when really I should be referring to the summoner's name like everyone else is to make sure I differentiate who I am talking about.

    And without knowing anything about the newer summoners, like I say I think the real issue is any faction that can generate magic by not attacking. Throughout the first 8 factions the ways to earn magic were to build your cards, play certain events, or kill something on the field. I think the critical error was introducing units that had the ability to generate magic themselves. Tundle and Demagogue are examples of this. Etch is a particularly awful one since he could be splashed into any faction. Oh and Rune Mages too since they "generated" magic by stealing it and could be included in any faction--which also really punished players for putting forward walls up too. But anyhow if your faction can generate magic by just sitting back and doing nothing, then you have a real reason to just sit on defense and build up a bunch of magic. And since you have a way of getting magic that your opponent probably doesn't, you will win the magic battle and with more magic you should win the game since you can bring on more and better units. And so summoner wars died for me with many of these units since it changed the game so much for the worse.

    I'm hoping they (the designers) realized this, but I have no clue. So if some of those other factions have ways to literally generate magic that wasn't in the original scope of the first 8 factions, I'm going to consider them very poorly thought out as I think that just ruined the game. And honestly apart from those things I listed, I'm quite happy to play almost any of the other original 16 factions, and I don't hear a lot of complaints about anything else. I suppose there are some complaints about CUE's, but frankly I personally think most of those are overblown. (although I can certainly see the argument for the game being more fun without certain CUE's like Magic Drain, I don't personally think any of the CUE's imbalanced the game).

    But anyhow some more summoners that promote common swarms are much appreciated too. MV and CG are always fun to play as from the original 16 in my opinion because they were some of the few that really played differently with the fact they somewhat wanted a bit of a common swarm rather than the summon all 3 champs style of almost every other faction. Still I just appreciate any faction that can make a nice strong push forward and engage in some wall crowding if they want to. So SO, TO I'm quite fine with too since they generally have strong summoners and beefy champs that they can make a good push with along with a couple reasonably tough commons. Sounds like there was some great stuff I'm missing out on in the later releases that I perhaps will go check out. But also sounds like there was continued meh to bad stuff.

    In the end, the base ideas of Summoner Wars are still great and it's a fun casual two player tactical card game that I still quite enjoy. I just think the massive number of factions means a competitive tournament scene can't really be maintained or fostered as it just won't function that well. And I think the game made a few fundamental design errors when they gave some units the ability to generate magic which had real bad consequences on how those factions would play out. (And even worse was making several mercs that could generate magic and go in ANY deck).

    Is there any way to "fix" this though? No, unless they release a second edition which would probably anger many people too. So no idea. I personally would be pretty happy if they wanted to reboot the game though with a 2nd edition and in the process clean up many of the mistakes of the past. But, how many others would really want to get in on that? Probably not many, and much of the fan base would likely be spurned by such a thing so I don't expect it to ever occur.

    So in the end I'll be happy enough with the game we have. It's quite cool and there is plenty of good. There's just enough bad though keeping me from loving it like I once had.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixio View Post
    As for Ranior, he's a little more difficult to deal with and can do some real damage.
    Tournament Record: 37-18

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranior View Post
    As for other games, just looked through your BGG collection and it looks like we'd have a great time gaming together if we lived closer. Alas. I discovered LotR LCG last year and agree that it's a fantastic game. Can't wait to keep getting some more expansions and playing more of that. I've also been addicted to A Feast for Odin as it's the best solo point salad type Euro I've ever played. Lots of other good games too of course.
    I'm sure we would have fun. LotR LCG is an excellent solo game. I almost sold it when I first tried it, until I tried playing it two-handed -- that's when the game came alive for me (by making use of more card combos and full use of the "Ranged" and "Sentinel" abilities) thereby making it a staple in my collection. However, solo games for only points (such as Feast for Odin) don't appeal to me at all -- I need a definite win/lose condition. But I'd play it competitively, which is how I enjoy euros, such as Age of Empires III, Lords of Waterdeep, Castles of Burgundy, etc.
    Only send a friendly invite (JYoder77) if you don't play PE, TO, GD, BD, no Rallul units outside of Rallul, and no Etch or Rune Mages (even in Rallul).
    My Custom Faction Creator tool. Contains demo images to show what you can create.
    Why Sunderved cries himself to sleep at night.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by JYoder View Post
    However, solo games for only points (such as Feast for Odin) don't appeal to me at all -- I need a definite win/lose condition. But I'd play it competitively, which is how I enjoy euros, such as Age of Empires III, Lords of Waterdeep, Castles of Burgundy, etc.
    Mmm totally fair. I get solo gamers who don't like playing for points and want win/lose instead. In fact I don't generally like playing for points either, but A Feast for Odin has me hooked because there is a nice community of solo players that have a "weekly" solo competition where a new scenario gets posted and we all play our best and compare scores. Else I doubt I'd be playing it as much solo since I agree there's only minimal fun to be found in trying to beat your own best score for the nth time.

    LotR LCG is great and there's always more expansion packs and quests to try out and new deckbuilds to run. I still often play one handed solo because I don't love trying to track both decks, but now that I've got a lot more experience I think I will be trying out two handed again as it should be easier to handle--and as you note not only are you able to make full use of abilities I also imagine many more scenarios are just a bit easier or more fun to play.

    Anyhow, it's been great fun discussing this but I'm probably going to retreat back to the shadows of these forums once again. I really do rarely play summoner wars anymore. I'm hoping I can find someone to play the game with in real life a bit more regularly and if/when I do I'll be sure to grab a few of those decks that have been suggested here though. I'd love to find a few new factions that I'd enjoy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixio View Post
    As for Ranior, he's a little more difficult to deal with and can do some real damage.
    Tournament Record: 37-18

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