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Thread: Avan matches - The dinky adventures.

  1. #21
    killercactus is offline SW App Champion Summer 2015, but still do what he says.
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheuslkr View Post
    Might wanna rethink that one
    Heh oh yeah - it's Cyrus that Negation wrecks. Yeah negating Dinky isn't a good idea.
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  2. #22
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    In any other card game, players would see that Dinky is strong and then start coming up with ways to counter him. They would go to a tournament with their "beat Dinky and still have good matchups against the field" decks and win. People would start running Grognack with Thwarters probably to beat him
    This is a problem i see when people talk about SW. (I have a problem with your statement because Krusk have a lot of deck behind just dinky so itīts not, i countered dinky i win, but this is a minor problem compared to the mayor claim here)

    Summoner wars is not Magic and is not a TCG. If some FACTION or Build can counter it, its not all fine in the world of SW. I agree that what you describe is what would happen in any other card game, because thatīs how they are designed! You are supposed to be involved in their gigantic messy puzzle. The games are DESIGNED to be unbalanced. And your job as a player, most of the time is not to play better. But to study the game and find the most broken thing, and run it in a tournament. If you can manage to find a build so op that 7-3 the field, itīs considered a success for the game. Is considered the puzzle was so complex and interesting, that between hundreds of players you managed to go one step furhter.

    That is how a TCG operates.
    Is Summoner wars as TCG?
    Well This is not the first time you refer to summoner wars to have qualities of a TCG, like right now. You mentioned in the past, that if summoner wars releases stop, the game will die (exactly how a TCG works. And before we get confused by correlations, I know SW releases will stop...but that will not kill the game, we know they will stop because the game is already dying). And you have proposed solutions to problems that work on a TCG (like counter specific metagames or decks with very specific builds).
    And I know some people confused Summoner wars as a TCG, and see summoner wars from the POV of a TCG, and some people initially at least (or always if they leave the game shortly after), treat Summoner wars as a TCG. I think this happens because some marketing issues, and the fact that it has deckbuilding (To me a big mistake of Summoner wars even beyond the wrong signaling it sends to a lot of people.)

    Here is my main problem with this.
    As a TCG, Summoner wars is a terrible game. I wouldnīt recommend Summoner wars to anyone looking into a TCG experience, and rightfully so, most people I know came into SW looking for a TCG walked away sorely dissapointed, and it makes sense.
    So imo, everytime you allow people to look at Summoner wars from TCG lenses, you are doing a diservice to the game, you are selling the game from a perspective, to which SW as a product, is absolutely terrible.
    itīs no surprise most people that like summoner wars. Never get into deckbuilding, or even despise the deckbuilding, because it conflicts with the strong points of the game.
    If i were to look at Summoner wars as a TCG, i would dropped first 3 months and go play Magic the gathering again, which is a game that as a TCG makes SW look like a very bad product.

    Summoner wars is great as a Board game, as a strategy game about TACTICS with movement in a grid board.

    Magic the gathering and other TCG are metagame games. Are games about showing with the right deck the right day. In that game a deck exist and can be countered by another deck, is all fine. Your comparision with ashes seems to indulge into that point, as Ashes seems to be a TCG too, and play on the same field. In those games, 90% of the stuff is useless, and you have to accept that if your deck canīt beat the rest of the field, you are just playing the wrong deck. Because that is what the game is about, is about breaking metagames, cards are released non stop and very quickly to keep the puzzle fresh. But the game is about solving the puzzle called METAGAME.

    You can comment "rallul is fine because you can counter it with Tacullu, so thats how itīs balanced" That is terrible in a game like SW. SW is a game about PLAYING THE GAME, clearly the deckbuilding is not deep so it canīt be about breaking the metagame, for SW to be of any worth, it has to be about playing the actual game in the board, and for it to be so, when two players sit across each other the match should be as balanced as possible.

    Imagine if in Starcraft Blizzard would have claimed "well Mutas are fine, because despite terrans have no way to counter them, protoss can just decimate them, so if you want to beat Zerg, just play Toss". no
    I played for 2 years competitivly Yomi which is a card game, that is Not a tcg and they make it very clear on the box of the game. It just says "This is not a TCG". In that game (that is still going pretty decently strong on the competitive scene) if something is too good (as Grave was considered for version 1.0) nobody would come and say "just play Rook" Which is a counter. It was agreed that it was a problem (and some people would even ban Grave in tournaments). Because yomi is about sitting and playing in an even field, is not about picking the right deck to wreck the metagame.

    I think people have a different perception in MvC games, but I know that is not how it works in street fighter. People donīt think "boxer is balanced", because he struggles vs Dhalsim and Chun li. No, itīs terrible that if you want to play even a good Character like Dee jay, , that goes toe to toe with chun lit, he gets decimated by Boxer. Boxer can be countered, that doesn't make it balanced or healthy for the game, because Street fighter is a game that should be defined by the decisions in game, not by what character you picked, I mean what is the purpose of the existence of most characters if so?.

    It seems sometimes that you think if the game were all 7-3 matches that cancel each other out, all is good in SW world. That may be true in MAgic the gathering world. But stop putting them on the same bag ,because you do a big disservice to SW when you do that.

    With that said, Im sure i can 6-4 with dinky krusk or better any player that is not playing one of the other 8 op summoners. Because Dinky is just op, you are not really countering him, when you do that stuff. you counter something when you manage to trade for less magic than i spend. _
    What is grognack going to do? summon thwarters and fight krusk with thwarters alone? never summon a champion? Even if i do? at some point Some champ needs to come out, at lest to counter my other 2 champs that i will use, and when it happens Dinky will strike and he already pays off and create an unbalanced situation, regardless of what grognack does next.
    You pretend like "oh Im krusk, I burn all my magic and summon dinky ASAP" That is not a realistic scenarios. I mean to say "gorillas counter it" Dinky will come to the board hitting a champ or summoner, and the only way to avoid that is to play with 0 champions, while krusk uses 2 champions. That canīt play well.
    I mean if Dinky reads "This champ canīt be summoned, but when you have this champ in the deck, your opponent canīt summon champions" that is op.

    Again the math is very simple if there were a champ that cost 6 and was 5av/6 life, it would be rightfully considered a problem.
    Also why we even consider Jujugara a problem? you can counter it with Tinkerers. With that attitude nothing is a problem ever (which to be honest sometimes seems to be SW community attitude) because you can "counter" everything. Why you even try to balance things in testing? Here is how you counter lun, play a very champ heavy deck (Actually this is real advice, generally vs tundle you have to build a very champ heavy deck).

    I guess if you are fine with a metagame with 9 decks that just counter each other narrow tunneled strategy and matches are largely decided before the first decision is even made, I agree there is no problem in SW.
    I say that because that is Largely how "other card games" like TCG like Magic and yu gi oh operate.
    Last edited by Waterd; 08-19-2016 at 12:54 PM.

  3. #23
    killercactus is offline SW App Champion Summer 2015, but still do what he says.
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    You make very good points, Waterd. I agree with them (mostly).

    Notice that I said that line of thinking (Dinky is OP) frustrates me - not that its wrong. It frustrates me because I'm used to TCGs, and quite honestly I used that TCG mindset in my time as lead playtester.

    The issue though is that, I think if SW actually did have a thriving competitive scene, people would think of it more as a TCG. And I also think that if people perceived Summoner Wars as more of a TCG, it would have more of a competitive scene. How's that for a catch 22?
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  4. #24
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    And I also think that if people perceived Summoner Wars as more of a TCG, it would have more of a competitive scene.
    Here is where I do not see eye to eye with you. Because as I said, if people see SW as a TCG, they would not like it. Because SW is not a good TCG.
    Interesting enough Captain who is challenging me right, is a player that I think he only joins games try to find everthing that is op, and then leave the game. That is the attitude of a TCG player. I have friends that ar elike that and did join SW initially, and then left the game, and now are playing netrunner or magic. These were players that help me very quickly to find the best thing because they would look at the cards and say "this looks op" and try to see if they are right, they would inmediatly pick tundle and add stone golems and rune mages.
    Most of the old things i cosnider too good, i didnīt find it myself, most were my friends that were treating SW as a TCG. I was the kind of guy that liked Sera and would try to make her work against all odds, while my friends where just constructing Grognack with rune mages and etch, Tundle with stone golems and Mugg with apprentice mages. (interestingly most of my friends discarded dema as mediocre, and it was I like tau that showed me the Void mutant cycle trick, because until that point we didnīt know that mutants that die through mutations go to your own magic pile, i thikn there is a tier list of me early on in the forums where i list Dema as a low tier summoner)

    I think trying to catch TCG players is a SW mistake, SW canīt compete with TCGs, as a TCG.
    SW should focus on attracting the following players:
    -Miniature players that care about the strategic part of the games but not the miniatures.
    -1v1 Grid movement board game players , both abstract and thematic (though its easier with thematic ones, abstract players get scared off from the dice, badly, though i saw a lot of chess players that got interested in SW)
    -Players that like tactical video games and want to play similar board games (Like players of battle of wesnoth and Advance wars)

    I understand why someone would try to lure the TCG players, itīs full of whales. But a lot of those whales enjoy the COLLECTIBLE part of the game, which SW doesnīt have.
    I think SW put a stick on itīs wheel by having deckbuilding which in my experience did scare off a lot of the mentioned groups.

    I think if SW would focus on market those groups, it would be able to build a competitve long lasting scene, but it would have required to focus less on deckbuilding and be more agressive in dealing with issues.
    Last edited by Waterd; 08-19-2016 at 02:33 PM.

  5. #25
    killercactus is offline SW App Champion Summer 2015, but still do what he says.
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    See, I feel like it is a good TCG. Because it has a faction breakdown, the deckbuilding element is reduced some, but it's not too different (though it is different) than picking a theme in something like Magic. In Magic you can play a Merfolk deck for instance, and then include cards that synergize with Merfolk. The whole card pool is open to you, but there's still a subset that works better in Merfolk. Summoner Wars you pick a faction and then the cards within that faction that work the best.

    Now if Merfolk doesn't beat white weenie, and white weenie is winning the metagame, then Merfolk is probably a bad tournament choice. If Sera doesn't beat Tundle, etc...

    That being said, again I hear you. I've always thought of it that way.
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    I honestly think the reason this game doesn't have a strong competitive scene is because very few people know about it. For me this game has so much that TCG games like MTG doesn't offer balance being one. I never heard of it before I saw a video Tom Vasel did on it and was like it has cards, dice and movement, amazing! Last year I had a small tournament with old friends when I visited. They were wanting to do a MTG booster draft but I had them change their minds and play SW. The 5 of them never heard of it and loved SW better than MTG. If Wizards of the Coast sold this game I bet it would be a huge hit. I haven't had the chance to pick up the new 2nd summoners, but some of them seem really good. The last set of the 2nd summoners were some of my favorite cards I could tell the creators have gotten a lot better. If I had to pick a couple of the new 2nd summoners which should I get? Ones that caught my eye are the filth, SG and benders. The decks I don't have other than the new 2nd summoners are the 1st master set and sera (I just didn't like her). I look forward to playing the new decks.

  7. #27
    killercactus is offline SW App Champion Summer 2015, but still do what he says.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blindside View Post
    I honestly think the reason this game doesn't have a strong competitive scene is because very few people know about it. For me this game has so much that TCG games like MTG doesn't offer balance being one. I never heard of it before I saw a video Tom Vasel did on it and was like it has cards, dice and movement, amazing! Last year I had a small tournament with old friends when I visited. They were wanting to do a MTG booster draft but I had them change their minds and play SW. The 5 of them never heard of it and loved SW better than MTG. If Wizards of the Coast sold this game I bet it would be a huge hit. I haven't had the chance to pick up the new 2nd summoners, but some of them seem really good. The last set of the 2nd summoners were some of my favorite cards I could tell the creators have gotten a lot better. If I had to pick a couple of the new 2nd summoners which should I get? Ones that caught my eye are the filth, SG and benders. The decks I don't have other than the new 2nd summoners are the 1st master set and sera (I just didn't like her). I look forward to playing the new decks.
    If you like to deckbuild, I'd look at Farrah Oathbreaker (Mercenaries), because her cards help out the old decks. My favorites after that are Shadow Elves, Filth and Mountain Vargath.
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    If I had to pick a couple of the new 2nd summoners which should I get?
    It really is a matter of personal preferations. I actually think all the new 2nd summoners have some cool and different concepts. Buy them all

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by adalbert View Post
    It really is a matter of personal preferations. I actually think all the new 2nd summoners have some cool and different concepts. Buy them all
    What he said!!
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  10. #30
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    Maldaria is you want a control type deck.
    Mad sirian if you want a straight up aggro deck.
    Frick if you enjoy explosive combos

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