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Thread: Avan matches - The dinky adventures.

  1. #11
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    Especially with Krusk having many disposable commons (bombers, wraiths) and discouraging the use of commons against him. If DinkyPlan consists of mass summoning commons that will just feed Krusk's magic, that itself seems like a superb ability.
    Olivier
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  2. #12
    killercactus is offline SW App Champion Summer 2015, but still do what he says.
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    Guys, I don't have an answer other than I watched the numbers and they weren't out of balance. I also read the playtest reports and no one was saying "Dinky with Krusk can't be beaten".

    The first thing I said when I read Dinky was "that's broken, but its also hilarious." So I watched the numbers to see what happened. I played Dinky myself. I both won and lost matches with Dinky, even in Marek where I think he's even crazier.

    It's possible testers didn't slow play and try to build up a crazy Dinky / Mirage / Sandstorm / Taunt combo, but I know the issues were discussed.

    When I was against Dinky, I did my best to keep my champions and Summoners away from walls / places there could be walls unless I was prepared to deal with Dinky immediately myself after he came down. There are answers in the metagame to deal with him. Baldar and Thwarters, which everyone is quick to point out are broken themselves, are the best counters to him. Hogar's Rune of Shielding is good. Filth has a bunch of mutants who are good at dealing with him. Cave Goblins can just swarm him and make his attack either miniscule or make him waste it attacking weenies. Poison can beat him. Phoenix Elves should save up their PRECISE combos / events to take him out when he hits the table. Fallen Kingdom wants to pit him against super-cheap Warlocks or heck, even Reavers in iElien. Mountain Vargath can redirect his super high attack to a Guard and make it overkill, along with putting tough-to-kill commons on the board. Moyra wants to save her Interventions to suck up Dinky attacks. Swamp Orcs want to tie him down in vines and make him deal with Turt and Prong. Rallul kills him in one shot. Farrah knows when he's coming and might even steal him. Jexik's Daring Plan should be kill Dinky. Vlox probably wants to use Cloak of Shadows on guys to kill him, or even Scam shenanigans. I could keep going.

    Those are DinkyPlans. You need one, and yeah there are going to be times when a plan fails or backfires. But when you're against Dinky, you need to worry about him for sure. And if your opponent bases his whole endgame on DinkyPunching your face only to run into your DinkyPlan, then you win.

    This is the part of Summoner Wars not having a real competitive community that always irritates me. In any other card game, players would see that Dinky is strong and then start coming up with ways to counter him. They would go to a tournament with their "beat Dinky and still have good matchups against the field" decks and win. People would start running Grognack with Thwarters probably to beat him. Then people would start running iElien to beat the Thwarters, etc. This doesn't ever happen because SW doesn't have that community. Instead, a few people jump on the boards and just talk about how broken everything is and how it all needs changed.

    This just happened really in Ashes. Frostback Bears came out, and they were immediately amazing. Everybody ran them, and some still do. Then Gen Con comes around and a deck without bears wins. Now everyone is talking about playing Coal, which previously no one played, to beat the new deck, and no one is talking about Bears anymore. It's true an errata to a different card changed the meta somewhat to make that counter to Bears more viable, but it doesn't change the fact that Bears seemed overpowered, and players found a way to play around them. Summoner Wars has never really had the opportunity for this to happen. If it had, I think the conversations we few that are left on the boards are having today would be much different.
    Last edited by killercactus; 08-19-2016 at 11:01 AM.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by killercactus View Post
    Guys, I don't have an answer other than I watched the numbers and they weren't out of balance. I also read the playtest reports and no one was saying "Dinky with Krusk can't be beaten".

    The first thing I said when I read Dinky was "that's broken, but its also hilarious." So I watched the numbers to see what happened. I played Dinky myself. I both won and lost matches with Dinky, even in Marek where I think he's even crazier.

    It's possible testers didn't slow play and try to build up a crazy Dinky / Mirage / Sandstorm / Taunt combo, but I know the issues were discussed.

    When I was against Dinky, I did my best to keep my champions and Summoners away from walls / places there could be walls unless I was prepared to deal with Dinky immediately myself after he came down. There are answers in the metagame to deal with him. Baldar and Thwarters, which everyone is quick to point out are broken themselves, are the best counters to him. Hogar's Rune of Shielding is good. Filth has a bunch of mutants who are good at dealing with him. Cave Goblins can just swarm him and make his attack either miniscule or make him waste it attacking weenies. Poison can beat him. Phoenix Elves should save up their PRECISE combos / events to take him out when he hits the table. Fallen Kingdom wants to pit him against super-cheap Warlocks or heck, even Reavers in iElien. Mountain Vargath can redirect his super high attack to a Guard and make it overkill, along with putting tough-to-kill commons on the board. Moyra wants to save her Interventions to suck up Dinky attacks. Swamp Orcs want to tie him down in vines and make him deal with Turt and Prong. Rallul kills him in one shot. Farrah knows when he's coming and might even steal him. Jexik's Daring Plan should be kill Dinky. Vlox probably wants to use Cloak of Shadows on guys to kill him, or even Scam shenanigans. I could keep going.

    Those are DinkyPlans. You need one, and yeah there are going to be times when a plan fails or backfires. But when you're against Dinky, you need to worry about him for sure. And if your opponent bases his whole endgame on DinkyPunching your face only to run into your DinkyPlan, then you win.
    Most of those "DinkyPlans" just seem to consist of "the faction needs to use their best weapon and focus all their power against this one, 6-cost, champion." Meaning those factions won't have those resources around to deal with Biter (previously the best SG champ, now insignificant next to Dinky), Krusk, Spider, etc., and will almost certainly spend more resources on the task than the 7 cards Krusk spent.

    You seem to be confusing "killable" with "balanced." You could make Dinky cost 0 and he'd still be vulnerable to all those "DinkyPlans", but that wouldn't make him balanced.

  4. #14
    killercactus is offline SW App Champion Summer 2015, but still do what he says.
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheuslkr View Post
    Most of those "DinkyPlans" just seem to consist of "the faction needs to use their best weapon and focus all their power against this one, 6-cost, champion." Meaning those factions won't have those resources around to deal with Biter (previously the best SG champ, now insignificant next to Dinky), Krusk, Spider, etc., and will almost certainly spend more resources on the task than the 7 cards Krusk spent.

    You seem to be confusing "killable" with "balanced." You could make Dinky cost 0 and he'd still be vulnerable to all those "DinkyPlans", but that wouldn't make him balanced.
    I'm not confusing anything. I understand that I'm saying many factions should plan to use their best weapons against the SG's best weapon. My (quick) definition of balanced is that decks including Dinky should have a 50%ish win rate ideally against the field. That's what the playtesting showed. If Dinky was 0-cost and decks with him in them still lost 50%, you can make an argument that he's balanced. Summoner Wars is weird in that regard compared to other games because only the factions need to be balanced since I can't put Dinky anywhere. Krusk probably had less testing than Scraven, but there weren't "Dinky is unbeatable" reports.

    The playtesters I had that played the games churned out the data and agreed that he was OK. Everyone here could've tested and voiced their opinions then, but didn't. I always rely on the data but I also read every single comment someone posts. When they conflict, I look to the data first and then my gut feel. This is what I did with Dinky and with every other SW card I was in charge of. All I can do now is talk about how I dealt with him. If other testers want to chime in with how they did it, I'm sure it would be appreciated.
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  5. #15
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    The fact that you refer to Dinky as "the SG's best weapon" at least means you acknowledge that Dinky is the best card in the faction. So, does that mean your data suggested that Krusk won noticeably less than 50% of his games against the field before the addition of Dinky? If not, why would you think that the SG needed a new best weapon?

  6. #16
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    He probably focused more on creating a card that was fun, than trying to make a card that was worse than some SG cards and better than others. And Dinky is loads of fun to play with and to play around.

    There are a lot of ways to kill a 6 health champion very quickly if you anticipate it. I think it's time to stop tearing into the card and to just try and give it a chance.
    Last edited by Harlow; 08-19-2016 at 11:41 AM.
    Oh no.

  7. #17
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    What's sera's dinky plan ? Gk gets taunted and champs die before they get healed (or die one round later). What's abuas plan? Hoping makeida survives the 6-7 dice? Heck i often combo worm with silts and that was already strong now with dinky it's one round kill everything �� ah forgot abua can use chant of negation ��

  8. #18
    killercactus is offline SW App Champion Summer 2015, but still do what he says.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwalker View Post
    What's sera's dinky plan ? Gk gets taunted and champs die before they get healed (or die one round later). What's abuas plan? Hoping makeida survives the 6-7 dice? Heck i often combo worm with silts and that was already strong now with dinky it's one round kill everything �� ah forgot abua can use chant of negation ��
    Yeah Abua wants to negate Dinky or poison him probably. Gorillas also can probably trade well with him.

    Sera doesn't really like Dinky. Even Sybil doesn't like Dinky. Can't deny that Sera is in a bit of trouble against him - probably needs to try a Priest / HJ turn.

    And yeah - I didn't design Dinky. Someone else did that faction - I just watched the stats and listened to the balance concerns. And I refer to him as the "SG's best weapon" because that's what you guys are saying he is. I really think their best weapon is the abilities of the two Summoners and SG Shamans. SANDSTORM and ESTEEMED LEADER require as much thought and concern as Dinky does, at least.

    The other thing about Dinky / Mirage / Taunt is.. how much better is it really than Silts / Mirage / Taunt? If I get Silts on the Summoner or Champion with this combo, I probably win the game anyway.
    Last edited by killercactus; 08-19-2016 at 11:53 AM.
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by killercactus View Post
    Yeah Abua wants to negate Dinky
    Might wanna rethink that one

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheuslkr View Post
    Might wanna rethink that one
    I lol'd, that is the opposite of helping.
    Could've made him 0 attack naturally, and made it so his ability basically read "Add 9 attack, minus 1 for every common", but yeah, can't remove his ability at all.
    Oh no.

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