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Thread: Competitive Rule Changes

  1. #11
    killercactus is offline SW App Champion Summer 2015, but still do what he says.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clarissimus View Post
    All 40 decks were available, but a small minority of them were actually used. I didn't play in the 5 for fighting (which probably saw more variety) but in the Pick your poison, this is what I saw:

    My decks: Mugglug & Tundle
    First opponent: Mugglug & Immortal Elien
    Second opponent: Mugglug & Grognack
    Third opponent: Sneeks & Prince Elien
    Fourth opponent: Rallul & Immortal Elien

    There were no etch-wars, not turtle-fests, etc, no games where both players sat back and waited for the other one to make the first move. Chess clocks were not used and didn't need to be. This is not because etch-wars etc are not a problem in Summoner Wars, it's because the competitive scene is dead. A big, thriving scene would have seen these things, just as Heroscape saw A+ armies in the big tournaments with the big prizes. When the motivation is there to win, people will play "un-fun" decks because they are good. When the tournament group is a bunch of people who just want to have fun, they are going to play what is "fun" rather than what is good. If tomorrow you announced a $5,000 SW tournament on the playdek app, I can guarantee you would see the etch-wars and turtle-fests again.

    As for the actual variant rules, I could critique them but there's really no reason to do so because they won't be used. There is no competitive SW scene; the game, if not dead, is very near to it. Even PHG knows this; they have given up on SW and are doing a lot to promote Ashes as their new competitive game.
    Again, another post I reluctantly agree just about 100% with. dok did say there were a bunch of Mugglug's and Immortal Eliens, though those are 2 decks I would expect to see a lot of even in an A+ competitive scene.
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  2. #12
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    When did PHG decide to give up on SW? I was surprised by the release of Alliances at the time because it was unexpected. What was the point of it if the game was already not doing well and slowly dying? Alliances is very well ranked in BGG by the way, did it not sell?
    Olivier
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  3. #13

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    I disagree with all changes but wouldn't be terribly opposed to #1 and #2. However, I am opposed to magic walls. There is no data to support it balances anything and there certainly hasn't been enough data to show that the normal game is unbalanced. I am of the opinion that majority or not, magic walls is far too untested, especially considering the new decks, to make that a canon rule.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattmanx06 View Post
    I disagree with all changes but wouldn't be terribly opposed to #1 and #2. However, I am opposed to magic walls. There is no data to support it balances anything and there certainly hasn't been enough data to show that the normal game is unbalanced. I am of the opinion that majority or not, magic walls is far too untested, especially considering the new decks, to make that a canon rule.
    I don't anticipate being very invested in these conversations, but having just received my second summoner decks two days ago (YES) a lot of those decks are geared toward aggression and rewarding aggression. Saturos can pick up free magic by attacking a wall? When I played magic walls before, I tested it with Selundar and he felt a little too strong because of it (just because his units are mobile enough to always hit a wall). I played magic walls a few other times and it feels just short of balanced with some decks and way too good with others (Sneeks and wall destruction plus generating magic is insane).

    So I agree strongly with this comment in comparison to the current state of the game. I don't really feel like we need a huge new ruleset, but here are 3 things I'd want:

    1) End game rule if two summoners refuse to attack each other
    2) Alternate way of measuring number of units on the field (less champions, less deck, less discard; some of these are bad, I'm just throwing ideas out)
    3) Ways of limiting Merc units (so your rule one).

    I doubt these will get used a lot, but I've already implemented starting position methods and it works great, for the most part. If both players do it, I haven't seen an unbalanced set up yet.

  5. #15
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    I agree with Crimson, also about 98%. 2nd and 3rd rule I don't see the point of at all, and the 3rd rule in particular seems to make it a different game. 1st rule I like just because I like variety and theme in a game, and Etch and Rune Mages take that out and make a game boring (if overused). New starting set-ups and events for the summoners that need it is the only thing I think this game needs, as discussed in the errata thread. Changing rules and even units seems odd to me, especially when almost every summoner has access to what may be considered an OP unit, and the magic wall rules seem to favour certain summoners over others which just unbalances the game the other way.

    I'm pretty obsessed with this game. I basically think about it constantly, create custom factions constantly and would play every day if I could. We all have those matches that suck, and stalemate a bit, but in my group that happens maybe 1/10 matches. But that happens in every competitive situation, whether it is a board game or sports or anything else. It is expected to happen from time to time, and as soon as one of those matches ends all I want to do is play again. These new rules (2 and 3) I don't think will solve how fun the game is. If these become official, people will build strategies around them and create a new problem... then more rules will need to be created to fix that...

    Like Crimson said, if it can be proven somehow that rules 2 and 3 make SW better, then I guess I should like it better too. I just don't see it as an appropriate fix.

  6. #16
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    1) "Mercenary Rule"
    Etch, Rune Mages, Stone Golems, and Apprentice Mages are restricted to a Mercenaries Summoner's deck. [This means they can only be included in Rallul, Farrah and Glurblub]

    2) "Inevitability Rule"
    Immediately after your turn ends, if you did not reduce the number of cards in your Draw Pile or attack an enemy card, you must choose an opponent. That opponent may place 1 Wound Marker on all Walls you control. If you control no Walls, instead place 1 Wound Marker on your Summoner. Ignore this rule if your opponent hasn't yet taken his first turn.

    3) "Magic Wall Rule"
    After the end of your turn you may remove one card from your Discard Pile and place it on top of your Magic Pile if the following conditions were met:
    1. One unit you control is adjacent to an opponent's normal Wall
    2. That unit attacked that Wall during your turn and inflicted at least 1 Wound.
    3. No other cards were affected by that attack
    Mercenary Rule - don't know if not too restrictive.
    "Inevitability Rule" - I like that it's kind of soft. I think might help against extreme turtlers.
    "Magic Wall Rule" - seems definitely too strong as proposed especially with the new decks (i.e. Natazga) but magic wall idea is worth giving a try; anyway not as canon but rather as official variant.

    Bottom line: I think there should be an official variant with the above 3 rules but not necessarily in the very exact version as KC's written.
    Last edited by adalbert; 08-08-2016 at 06:18 PM.

  7. #17
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    Oh, and it's 7 min. left in the 2nd quarter and still your Dream Team has some problems with Venezuela in Rio
    Unfortunately I have to get up in 5,5 hours...

  8. #18
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    I have read here " it seems to be too strong, or op" but the reality is there were people testing it with very good results. This is all very similar to avan variant which has been tested a lot by waterd for long time and he is as critic with his own variant as he is with everything else. I have also testedit many times and I Would never play again SW without magic walls.

    I would suggest you to tive it a try and then post yoir comments based on your experiences instead of your expectations.

    I dont know a single person who has tested the rule and said the game is worse with it, instead I have always heard the game improves. Some people may think it is unnecessary but never said it was bad for the game.

    I am happy to have 2 ways of playing SW, you people chose whatever you like bit at least try and only then judge, I think is a fair demand.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olivier View Post
    When did PHG decide to give up on SW? I was surprised by the release of Alliances at the time because it was unexpected. What was the point of it if the game was already not doing well and slowly dying? Alliances is very well ranked in BGG by the way, did it not sell?
    The original plan was to release Alliances after the 2nd Summoners were all finished, but Alliances got pushed up because the brand was already struggling and they were hoping Alliances would give up a shot in the arm. It's true that SW is still ranked very well on BGG, but that is by people who don't do deckbuilding and don't play in tournaments. As a tournament game, PHG has all but abandoned it in favor of promoting Ashes. At GenCon this year there were only 2 Summoner Wars events (and placed in Thursday, the least well-attended day of the Con), but Ashes had a very high-profile tournament in the dealer hall.

  10. #20
    killercactus is offline SW App Champion Summer 2015, but still do what he says.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattmanx06 View Post
    I disagree with all changes but wouldn't be terribly opposed to #1 and #2. However, I am opposed to magic walls. There is no data to support it balances anything and there certainly hasn't been enough data to show that the normal game is unbalanced. I am of the opinion that majority or not, magic walls is far too untested, especially considering the new decks, to make that a canon rule.
    There actually is some data and it was decent, but I still don't like it
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