Results 1 to 5 of 5

Thread: Choke, "used", and other hard timing stuff

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    8

    Default Choke, "used", and other hard timing stuff

    Let me see if I can get all of this right...

    --------------------

    PART 1: Played abilities

    1. Active player declares that they are playing an ability, pays costs and selects targets.
    --> This ability has been "used". Choke happens here.

    2. Resolve the effect
    --> Nothing can interrupt effect resolution, so anything that might be triggered would come after effect resolution***.

    --------------------

    PART 2: Passive abilities

    1. The game reaches a point where some passive ability would be applicable
    --> The controller of that ability has now "used" it, even if they have no intention of taking advantage of any options it might provide.
    --> Choke happens here, before the game continues on to whatever situation the passive ability applies to.

    i.e. You "use" Unit Guard as soon as the game reaches that step, before and regardless of whether you choose to make that particular guarding decision.

    --------------------

    PART 3: Triggered abilities and reaction spells

    Whenever an event that could cause a triggered ability or reaction spell occurs:

    1. Each player (active player first) must declare intent to play a reaction spell if they wish to do so. They must name the spell they wish to use*. Additionally, intention must be declared for any optional (has text like "you may pay cost to do x") triggered ability.

    2. Handle all declared spells/abilities, and any mandatory triggered abilities, in an order that the AP determines**. For each, its controller:

    a) Pays the cost (if any) and selects targets
    --> The ability has now been "used", so Choke happens here

    b) Resolves the effect
    --> Nothing can interrupt effect resolution, so anything that might be triggered would come after effect resolution but before the next spell/ability in the queue is used


    * In the course of natural gameplay, the inactive player may be the first one to mention that they have a reaction spell, but they don't technically have to name it until the active player has declared and named all of their reactions/triggers

    ** The AP does not need to lay out the full sequence up front; they can pick one ability, it gets fully resolved, then they pick the next, and so on. However, all declared abilities and spells must ultimately be played if possible.

    If the AP chooses to handle an opponent's ability at a point when it has no legal targets, then that ability simply does not get used?

    --------------------

    ***BONUS: "Speed" of various things

    As it relates to what sorts of things can interrupt what, what things have to wait etc. I think it's like:

    1. Players winning/losing the game

    2. Completion of an effect's resolution

    3a. The -initiation- of a destruction sequence
    3b. The -initiation- of a damage resolution sequence

    4. Triggered abilities and reaction spells

    5. The procession of a damage / destruction sequence

    6. Anchornaut, and other open-ended "during your turn" things

    7. The procession of a combat sequence

    8. The playing of main and side actions

    Or are 1 and 2 flipped? 6 and 7 could be flipped as well; it'd make more sense that way, but I feel like I've read otherwise.

    But the meat of this question is 3 through 5 - as I understand it, once an effect has resolved, any damage or destruction that occurred during it has to be handled before anything triggering off of other parts of the effect can even be declared.

    However, triggers and reactions spells and such are allowed to interrupt the resolution of a damage or destruction sequence (obviously, else Sympathy Pain and Final Cry wouldn't work).

    So i.e. my opponent activates Summon Gilder, targeting my Anchornaut. Ice Trap is not even a twinkle in my eye, because the effect resolution cannot be broken nor the ensuing entry into a damage resolution sequence.

    I cannot use Anchornaut before the damage resolves to a wound, or before its destruction sends it to my discard pile. I can, however, Sympathy Pain the Gilder before Anchornaut gets a wound, which would send us into a new ("stacked") damage sequence. I can also trigger my two Chant of Revenges upon the Anchornaut's destruction (before it goes to discard).

    But Ice Trap would need to wait (if I haven't played some other Reaction Spell) until Anchornaut is in the discard pile and we have no other pending reactions to that (i.e. Screams). Only then do players go about declaring any reactions or triggers to the Gilder entering play.

    --------------------

    Am I close to getting all this down?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    61

    Default

    Lets have a go at answering this, I may be wrong on some points.

    PART 1: Played abilities

    1. Active player declares that they are using an ability (playing is a weird way of saying it), pays costs and selects targets. e.g. anchornaut throw.
    --> The active player would be using an ability, providing a trigger for choke. Choke is played as a reaction and resolved fully. The effect of Choke cancels the effect of the ability for this turn.

    2. The effect of the ability was cancelled so nothing happens here.

    --------------------

    PART 2: Passive abilities

    1. The game reaches a point where some passive ability would be applicable. e.g. An attack a unit action is declared.

    Scenario 1> The controller of that ability (Gilder with Unit Guard) now has to opportunity to "use" it. They declare they are using unit guard and guarding the attack (e.g. with a Gilder). This provides the trigger for Choke, which is played. Choke resolves, cancelling unit guard and the unit is no longer able to guard. Attack is resolved on the original target.

    Scenario 2> The controller of the Gilder declines to Guard (or guards with PB instead). No ability is used so no trigger for Choke.

    i.e. You "use" Unit Guard when you use the unit as a guard.

    --------------------

    ***BONUS: "Speed" of various things

    1. You cant trigger Sympathy Pain off a Gilder as Sympathy Pain resolves from damage to a PB, not a unit.

    2. Ashes isn't really a 'speed' of things game. It can be a little confusing at first, but generally the game follows a pretty well defined 'action-effect-effect resolution' process.

    Reaction spells can be a little confusing because they add a 'trigger-reaction-effect resolution' into the process. Reaction spells interrupt the original process (at the specific time of their trigger), and fully resolve before you resume the original process. When dealing with timing issues, try to think in terms of: when is the trigger and what effect am I currently resolving?


    "But the meat of this question is 3 through 5 - as I understand it, once an effect has resolved, any damage or destruction that occurred during it has to be handled before anything triggering off of other parts of the effect can even be declared."

    This depends of when the trigger for your effect is.

    e.g. If I use my main action to summon a Gilder, I pay the cost and declare that I will target your Anchornaut with the 1 damage. Targeting the Anchornaut is a valid trigger for your Golden Veil, which you now declare and pay for. The entire effect of my summon Gilder spell is cancelled by GV, so no damage is done and no Gilder is placed on the field.

    Ice Trap is a bit more complex, and I may be wrong here so would love for Phuzz or someone else to confirm this.

    1. I pay a main action and leaf to use summon Gilder, I declare that my 1 damage will target your Anchornaut.
    2. Now I resolve effects on the card, top to bottom. First I place a Gilder onto the battlefield, then I deal a damage to the anchornaut.
    3. Now we jump into the damage resolution for the damage dealt to the anchornaut, a wound is placed and he is destroyed.
    4. Now you have your trigger for Ice Trap (Gaze could trigger here too FYI) - you can play Ice Trap and drop that Gilder to it's death!


    "But Ice Trap would need to wait (if I haven't played some other Reaction Spell) until Anchornaut is in the discard pile and we have no other pending reactions to that (i.e. Screams). Only then do players go about declaring any reactions or triggers to the Gilder entering play."

    Yes, I think so. The trigger for Ice Trap is after the unit has entered play.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    8

    Default

    PART 1: Played abilities

    1. Active player declares that they are using an ability (playing is a weird way of saying it), pays costs and selects targets. e.g. anchornaut throw.
    --> The active player would be using an ability, providing a trigger for choke. Choke is played as a reaction and resolved fully. The effect of Choke cancels the effect of the ability for this turn.

    2. The effect of the ability was cancelled so nothing happens here.
    Sure. I suppose I meant "Choke -would- happen here", i.e. if someone were to play it etc.

    i.e. You "use" Unit Guard when you use the unit as a guard.
    This doesn't work for mandatory things like Battle Advantage though. Is there yet another class of effect making a distinction between which passives include options and which don't? That sounds like it'd be hard to properly codify down the road (the game -will- need a fleshed out comprehensive rulebook at some point, after all). Like I don't know what you would put in a technical document to properly identify what sequences of passive text can potentially result in a gameplay decision at some time or other, at least not with nearly the ease that you can do with optional triggered stuff that basically always says "you may do x".

    1. You cant trigger Sympathy Pain off a Gilder as Sympathy Pain resolves from damage to a PB, not a unit.
    Ummm right. I don't get to play enough >.< Let's say it's Final Cry on a dying wolf or something instead.

    2. Ashes isn't really a 'speed' of things game. It can be a little confusing at first, but generally the game follows a pretty well defined 'action-effect-effect resolution' process.
    I do basically grasp that, but it felt easier to organize in that way - as in, I'm trying to ask if anything on the list can ever interrupt something above it. But yeah, I don't know that in actual gameplay I'd say "x is 'faster' than y", other than maybe the start of a damage/destruction sequence being 'faster' than any kind of trigger/reaction to other parts of the effect.

    This depends of when the trigger for your effect is.

    e.g. If I use my main action to summon a Gilder, I pay the cost and declare that I will target your Anchornaut with the 1 damage. Targeting the Anchornaut is a valid trigger for your Golden Veil, which you now declare and pay for. The entire effect of my summon Gilder spell is cancelled by GV, so no damage is done and no Gilder is placed on the field.
    Well, Golden Veil would happen before the effect starts resolving, so that doesn't count as an example (of something that sneaks in before the damage resolution process starts).

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    8

    Default

    Would love if a playtester could chime in on this. Choke is a really weird card; "when an opponent would use" implies that Choke prevents them from even paying for the ability (so the opponent says "I'm going to use Aradel's Water Blast" and you say "nuh uh, choked!" at which point they haven't paid the costs). However "Cancel the effects of that ability" suggests that any applicable costs were paid for and it's simply the effects that are prevented (so the opponent says "I'm going to use Aradel's Water Blast", then pays 1 leaf and exhausts her at which point I'm all "You have failed me for the last time, Aradel" and the effects of Water Blast fizzle). The latter would make more sense based on how other reaction spells work, too; it's just that word "would" that's throwing a wrench in the works.

    Which is it? This is kind of super important when it comes to figuring out how to play/defend against Choke.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    104

    Default

    You pay the cost and then the effect gets Choked.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •