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Thread: Summoner Wars Declared "Turtle Wars" by World Press

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by killercactus View Post
    Hopefully it's not very far away. I'm excited for them - especially Saturos. I feel like we got a tad bit crazy with him, but in a good (and very balanced) way. I love what the deck does to the meta - especially the pre-conceived Defenders advantage garbage. Saturos has attackers advantage, baby!
    I'm literally salivating with excitement over that statement!!

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by killercactus View Post
    Hopefully it's not very far away. I'm excited for them - especially Saturos. I feel like we got a tad bit crazy with him, but in a good (and very balanced) way. I love what the deck does to the meta - especially the pre-conceived Defenders advantage garbage. Saturos has attackers advantage, baby!

    *stands up in public coffee shops and starts doing happy dance*
    App username: Let's play a game!

  3. #13

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    So, I'm not going to lie guys... I'm a little disappointed about what I'm seeing in the responses here. Yes, the OP had some sarchasm, but he isn't wrong. The older summoners did (and do) needlessly reward what I'll call "mindless passivity". There is a defender advantage (in varying degrees) for the older content and matchups... From past forum discussions, I thought this had been confirmed pretty thoroughly.

    With that said, why the " head in the sand" mentality? It's a problem, so lets fix it. Creating new matchups is nice, but isn't there a more direct way to improve the older matchups? New reinforcements, or something?

    Please understand, its BECAUSE I enjoy summoner wars that the "Defender advantage, what? Play Marek." annoys me. I dream of a day where Grognack, Oldin, Elien mirror matches are enjoyable. With a great company like PHG, why should we settle for less?

    Edit: Has there been any time spent considering an expansion that adds siege breaking emplacements? Trebuchets, summon gates that pump out cheap, replenishing mobs until destroyed, etc? Just thinking there might be some ways to incentivize aggression.
    Last edited by Fataliomega; 11-08-2015 at 03:20 PM.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fataliomega View Post
    So, I'm not going to lie guys... I'm a little disappointed about what I'm seeing in the responses here. Yes, the OP had some sarchasm, but he isn't wrong. The older summoners did (and do) needlessly reward what I'll call "mindless passivity". There is a defender advantage (in varying degrees) for the older content and matchups... From past forum discussions, I thought this had been confirmed pretty thoroughly.

    With that said, why the " head in the sand" mentality? It's a problem, so lets fix it. Creating new matchups is nice, but isn't there a more direct way to improve the older matchups? New reinforcements, or something?

    Please understand, its BECAUSE I enjoy summoner wars that the "Defender advantage, what? Play Marek." annoys me. I dream of a day where Grognack, Oldin, Elien mirror matches are enjoyable. With a great company like PHG, why should we settle for less?

    Edit: Has there been any time spent considering an expansion that adds siege breaking emplacements? Trebuchets, summon gates that pump out cheap, replenishing mobs until destroyed, etc? Just thinking there might be some ways to incentive aggression.
    OK, let's just say that what you are describing happened. PHG fixed these summoners and made them more aggressive. Now, I'll say right off the bat, errata is the ONLY way this is possible, or rather, the only way the PHG would ever conceivably do. More reinforcements would not work, because as it stands currently, the cards that allow Summoners like Grog, Elien, and Oldin to be so good are among the best in the game. There is no such thing as a balanced unit that could ever be released into this game as a competitively viable alternative to Gror in Oldin's deck. Or Rukar/Bragg in Grognack. Or Fire Drake in Elien. And events don't get fixed by that anyway. The only way to fix them would be errata. Let's say they did do that, they weakened all the really strong cards.

    What now? Suddenly, those factions aren't as big a competitive threat anymore. Consequently, there is less play of their best opponent's, so factions like JE, CL, and Marek aren't played as often. What's left? I may not be completely right, but it will probably turn into Dema, Tundle, Rallul, and Mugg meta, with very few viable alternatives. I just think that having them adds a little bit of variety in the top tiers that helps create a great deal of diversity in the next tier or two down.
    Marek is LOVE. Marek is LIFE.

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  5. #15

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    I completely agree with you Joseph, that it's not easy to solve.

    I was thinking in terms of providing each faction with strong anti-mindless-turtle solutions. This would mean a Grognack optimal play wouldn't be kill off all units and build Magic, because it would open up the player to being decimated by hard counters..

    Now, these options could be provided by traditional reinforcements, but I was almost thinking in terms of adding a new mode of play. What if all summoners suddenly have the ability to "place" anti siege emplacements... Not sure, but its fun to duscuss.

    Anyway, I won't sell you on a particular mechanical solution. The point is to call a spade a spade. Older matchups have problems. Unfortunately, those older factions are also "starting" factions. Many folks remain introduced to SW through the two starting kits. With alliances, and the first master set, being fairly pricey, picking up a starter kit is often more attractive.

  6. #16
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    Yeah, I get what you are saying.

    The only way any change is going to happen is errata. PHG is a business, and while errata would be expensive, I just don't see them doing anything else. More reinforcements would not work and a rules change is just not up PHGs ally at all.

    Oldin needs no change. As the meta has evolved, not only does he have bad MUs now, but also all of his super good MUs - like Sneeks, Vlox, Sera, etc. - have been toned down into nearly even by the addition of great units to these factions.

    I hate to say it, but Elien doesn't really need a change either. Let's be honest here: Elien is a control summoner. And it just so happened that if you look at the meta today, all of his bad MUs (of which there are many) are newer summoners, and all of his good MUs are older ones. I honestly feel like Elien got a somewhat unfair reputation because he was simply released with the wrong factions. Nerfing him could ruin him, and probably would. Games like SW all have a rock=paper-scissors like aspect to it. The less, the better, and SW has it very little. But it is still there, Elien was just the scissors that was released with nothing but tissue paper (and a few other pairs of scissors) and stayed that way for a long time until PHG released a torrent of rocks onto his head. If there is one card that needs changing, it is the PE Warrior. Easily the best 1 cost common in the game and probably the best overall too.

    Grog is the only one the original Big 3 that needs any sort of change. Specifically, two things. One, weaken Grog himself. Make him a 4/6/M, that would be a huge difference. One life point, especially between 6 and 7, is huge on summoners. Two, and most important, nerf Freeze/Bragg. Such BS right there. I personally favor just adding one to Bragg's life total and dropping the Freeze part of his ability. Makes him much more compatible with Torgan.
    Marek is LOVE. Marek is LIFE.

    3 rules of SW:

    1. Marek is perfect.

    2. Marek is the best Summoner ever.

    3. Marek will troll the everliving crap out of you.

    "If you can't blow them away with your brilliance, baffle them with your bullshit." -Marek (probably).
    Member of the unofficial PHG debate team. (Officially endorsed by Marek.)

  7. #17

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    Theoretically speaking here..

    Can a "patch deck" be added for the same cost of the re-enforcement decks that *REPLACES* the OP cards/events? Maybe even have stickers that can be delivered for very low costs that can be applied on the card surface. Let's think out of the box here... I mean almost everything receives patches/fixes, why not a board game like summoner wars?

  8. #18

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    *shrug* I guess it all comes down to PHGs willingness to try different solutions. Right now, they are on a release new content kick. Maybe after second summoners they will take a serious look at solving the different intrinisic problems SW has.

    I guess I've just been extremely impressed with the way arcanewonders has chosen to tackle mage wars many problems. In addition to new content that attempts to balance the different mages , they've also released two new game modes that attempts to address tough-to-solve problems like game length. I don't see any reason PHG can't do similar.

  9. #19
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    IMHO, a new rule set for inevitability is needed. Cuz at the end of the day, no matter how much aggression is rewarded, it is not required. Timing out is a lame way to win or lose, but the only way now.

    Of course, what that rule set should be has been discussed to death with no resolution in sight. There's no easy solution.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fataliomega View Post
    *shrug* I guess it all comes down to PHGs willingness to try different solutions. Right now, they are on a release new content kick. Maybe after second summoners they will take a serious look at solving the different intrinisic problems SW has.

    I guess I've just been extremely impressed with the way arcanewonders has chosen to tackle mage wars many problems. In addition to new content that attempts to balance the different mages , they've also released two new game modes that attempts to address tough-to-solve problems like game length. I don't see any reason PHG can't do similar.
    Mage Wars is different in that it is more complicated a game and most of its problems (pretty much all the big ones, like length) can be taken care of by simply stripping away certain parts of the game. Whether or not the downside of taking off certain parts is worth getting rid of the original problem is debatable, but fixing the problem itself is simple. SW is much simpler. There is nothing to strip away. No excess rules that may make more for a better game in some regards, but cause problems in others. Fixing SW with a rules change would require adding a rule. This is much harder to accurately gauge the effect of than stripping away an effect, and it would probably drastically alter the way SW is played because the game is so rules-lite and every and any change counts. Nobody has found things that work yet, and believe me, they've tried. Waterd has had probably the most success, but even then, he gets mixed results that work for some people, and not for others. Sluggish walls for example, has been a real game-breaker for some (me included), but for others, it apparently has worked wonders. I just don't see PHG doing it anytime soon. They certainly won't even contemplate it before all the SS are released, and even if they immediately went to the drawing board after that, it would take a long time to come up with a good change, test it, tweak, etc, until they are positive that the game is still fine.
    Marek is LOVE. Marek is LIFE.

    3 rules of SW:

    1. Marek is perfect.

    2. Marek is the best Summoner ever.

    3. Marek will troll the everliving crap out of you.

    "If you can't blow them away with your brilliance, baffle them with your bullshit." -Marek (probably).
    Member of the unofficial PHG debate team. (Officially endorsed by Marek.)

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