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Thread: Clarification on simultaneous effects

  1. #1
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    Default Clarification on simultaneous effects

    If both players have Phoenixborn with 2 life remaining and:
    Player 1 summons a Stormwind Sniper, deals 2 damage to Player 2's Phoenixborn, but Player 2 responds with Sympathy Pain, dealing the damage to P1's phoenixborn.

    How do we resolve this? Do both damages resolve simultaneously (in which case P1 wins by choosing order?). Or does sympathy pain resolve fully on damage dealt before the wounds from the Stormwind sniper are placed so p2 wins?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by albino_penguin View Post
    in which case P1 wins by choosing order
    This, as per my understanding, is the correct interpretation. From the forum post "LF Official word on procedure and timing or triggered effects and Resolving Damage", I understand it as...

    Damage is dealt: P1 deals 2 damage
    On damage effects: P2 deals 3 damage
    Place wounds/ destruction: P1, as active player, chooses priority. P2 receives 2 wounds and P2 Phoenixborn is destroyed. Game win for P1. (If P2 Phoenix born was not destroyed, P1 would then receive 3 wounds...)

    Just my understanding/interpretation. No money back guarantees. Damage is always pooled/ added, then wounds are placed, with active player choosing priority. Destruction is instantaneous on wounds = life value.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phuzzworthy View Post
    So it's official now, damage happens, triggers that resolve on damage happen, then wound tokens are placed for damage dealt.
    This means that events which trigger on damage resolve completely before the wounds from the first event's damage are placed. So the time line looks like this:

    1) P1's Stormwind Sniper deals two damage to P2's Phoenixborn
    2) P2 plays Sympathy Pain in response to the damage
    3) Sympathy Pain deals three damage to P1's Phoenixborn
    4) P1 places three wound tokens on his Phoenixborn which completely resolves Sympathy Pain
    5) P2 places two wound tokens on his Phoenixborn which resolves Stormwind Sniper

    So no: P1 does not choose the order in which Stormwind Sniper and Sympathy pain are resolved since they are not simultaneous events. Stormwind Sniper's damage rather triggers Sympathy Pain as a response which has to be completely resolved before you can continue with Storm Sniper's effects. In the end P1 loses the game at step 4 in the timeline but I added step 5 for clarity's sake and cases in which Sympathy Pain's damage does not kill the Phoenixborn.
    Last edited by Sinderlin; 09-14-2015 at 08:45 AM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinderlin View Post
    This means that events which trigger on damage resolve completely before the wounds from the first event's damage are placed. So the time line looks like this:

    1) P1's Stormwind Sniper deals two damage to P2's Phoenixborn
    2) P2 plays Sympathy Pain in response to the damage
    3) Sympathy Pain deals three damage to P1's Phoenixborn
    4) P1 places three wound tokens on his Phoenixborn which completely resolves Sympathy Pain
    5) P2 places two wound tokens on his Phoenixborn which resolves Stormwind Sniper

    So no: P1 does not choose the order in which Stormwind Sniper and Sympathy pain are resolved since they are not simultaneous events. Stormwind Sniper's damage rather triggers Sympathy Pain as a response which has to be completely resolved before you can continue with Storm Sniper's effects. In the end P1 loses the game at step 4 in the timeline but I added step 5 for clarity's sake and cases in which Sympathy Pain's damage does not kill the Phoenixborn.
    I don't think this is right. Phuzzworthy says happen for both of them in that part that you quoted, not resolve. The resolve part is a trigger for Symp Pain, not saying that Symp Pain happens first. P1 should win the game if Im understanding correctly.
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  5. #5
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    Yea definitely worth having a look at the last page or so of the forum post LF Official word on procedure and timing or triggered effects and Resolving Damage.
    Sympathy Pain happens/resolves, which deals damage. "then wound tokens are placed for damage dealt". These wounds are placed simultaneously, so active player chooses priority.

    Some good examples from the forum post listed above, that Phuzzworthy confirmed:
    The final example deals with Sympathy Pain.
    Quote Originally Posted by nbfritz View Post
    Hammer Knight (0 wounds, no buffs) vs. Hammer Knight (0 wounds, no buffs)
    1. Knights deal 4 damage to each other (but no wound tokens are placed)
    2. Active Player (AP) gives priority to their own unit first and places one wound token on the Inactive Player's (IP) knight to resolve Aftershock. Then IP places a wound token on AP's knight to resolve their own Aftershock.
    3. Wounds for damage are placed -- 4 per knight. Both knights now have 5 wound tokens and die.
    4. Nothing is left to exhaust.

    Hammer Knight (0 wounds, no buffs) vs. Living Doll (2 wounds, no buffs)
    1. Knight deals 4 damage to blood doll. (No wound tokens are placed.)
    2. AP gives priority to their Hammer Knight and places one wound token on Doll to resolve Aftershock. Doll now has 3 wound tokens and dies immediately before Pain Link can be triggered.
    3. Knight took no damage, so no wound tokens are placed.
    4. Exhaustion token is placed on Knight.

    Living Doll (2 wounds, no buffs) vs. Hammer Knight (0 wounds, no buffs)
    1. Knight deals 4 damage to blood doll. (No wound tokens are placed.)
    2. AP gives priority to their Living Doll and inflicts 3 damage to IP's phoenixborn using Pain Link. IP now resolves their Knight's Aftershock ability by placing 1 wound marker on the Living Doll. It now has 3 wound tokens and dies.
    3. Knight took no damage, so no wound tokens are placed on it, but 3 are placed on IP's phoenixborn.
    4. Exhaustion token is placed on Knight.

    Silver Snake (1 status token) vs. False Demon
    1. Snake deals 1 damage to Demon. Demon counters for 1 damage to Snake. (No wound tokens placed).
    2. AP has no triggers, but IP must resolve Illusion. Demon is destroyed immediately. Consume cannot trigger, as Demon was destroyed by Illusion and not by anything the AP did.
    3. Snake receives 1 wound token.
    4. Snake receives 1 exhaustion token.
    The last example got changed, and Phuzzworthy did not confirm the new change, but had beforehand confirmed the general structure of this one
    Quote Originally Posted by nbfritz View Post

    Mist Spirit vs. Phoenixborn with Sympathy Pains all around
    Active Player (AP) and Inactive Player (IP) each have 3 health remaining.
    1. Mist Spirit deals 1 damage to IP's phoenixborn.
    2. IP plays Sympathy pain to deal 3 damage to AP's phoenixborn. AP plays Their own Sympathy Pain to deal 3 damage to IP's phoenixborn.
    3. AP gives priority to themselves for simultaneous damage resolution and places 4 wound tokens on IP's phoenixborn, winning the game before 3 tokens can be placed on their own phoenixborn.
    4. I am exhausted :-)

  6. #6
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    So let me get this straight:

    1. Reaction cards fully resolve after their point of trigger but before any further results from the trigger are performed.

    2. Sympathy Pain triggers on damage, it's resolution is to deal damage (wounds have not yet been placed).

    3. We are left with a situation where there are two sets of wounds to be placed (from SW Sniper damage and Sympathy Pain damage). The placing of these wounds is simultaneous.

    4. P1 can choose which wounds to place first and thus wins.

    Am I right? It just doesn't really sit right with me - I would have thought resolving the damage from SP and placing wounds should be part of resolving SP's damage and thus happen before we step back and place the wounds from the SW sniper's damage.

  7. #7
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    (1. <maybe) 2., 3. + 4. Y... yes. But I would word it like...

    In any 'sequence', damage dealt and wounds placed happen separately (independently) of each other. As in:
    [1.] All damage dealt by both sides is pooled
    [2.] On damage effects are simultaneous
    and [3.] Wounds from damage placed are simultaneous. The active player can choose priority in these simultaneous effects.
    Note: Wounds from other sources than damage are placed immediately. i.e. wounds from [2.] On damage effects will be placed before [3.] Wounds from damage placed (while damage from [2.] will be pooled and placed during [3.]).
    Note Well: Any time wounds = Life value, that card (unit/PhoenixBorn) is IMMEDIATELY destroyed.

    A 'sequence' could be anything such as: Main action- Attack (to PB or unit), Main action- Deal Damage (to PB or unit), or Side action- Deal Damage (to unit )
    as any of these could elicit a re-action of dealing damage.
    Futureproof 'sequence's (perhaps some future PB has cards/abilities that allow dealing damage on: Playing cards to spellboard, Placing units on the battlefield, Playing... alterations?, Side action- damage to PB, etc., etc.)

    From what /(IF!) I understand, this is supposed to give an incentive to the player with initiative. It is better to be on the initiating end of the sequence than on the defending end of the sequence. (Because if we both have Living Dolls with attack value and Sympathy Pains, the one who strikes first will get the killing blow before the one waiting defensively will strike a killing blow)
    Well... I was hoping to make this more understandable, but fear I am making it even worse than it needs to be... Phuzzy, jump in any time and tell me where I am wrong.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by albino_penguin View Post
    It just doesn't really sit right with me - I would have thought resolving the damage from SP and placing wounds should be part of resolving SP's damage and thus happen before we step back and place the wounds from the SW sniper's damage.
    That is certainly the way I interpret the rules but others seem to disagree. My argument rests on the following part of the rule book found on page 10 under the heading "Playing a Card":
    To play a card you must first pay its cost (1), then put it into play (or discard it) as directed by the card’s placement (2). If it is an action or reaction spell, immediately carry out its effect.
    To me this looks exactly like a rephrasing of the ancient rule "first in, last out". Magic players might know the concept as "the stack".
    Last edited by Sinderlin; 09-21-2015 at 06:46 AM.

  9. #9
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    OK, so this question keeps popping up, I'm not sure how to make it clearer, but I'll try again.

    Damage from a battle is simultainious, if it helps, when damage is dealt place wound tokens next to the unit's and/or Phoenixborn that are being dealt damage.

    After damage has been dealt, the active player chooses what unit or phoenixborn will have it's damage resolved first (note that during an attack a phoenixborn action, each attacking unit will have it's attack resolved one at a time, so only one attacker and its blocker, if there is one, will have damage waiting to be resolved).

    When resoving damage, follow the steps of damage completely to resolution (recieve damage, wound tokens placed and the unit or Phoenixborn is destroyed if there are enough wound tokens (this is one step because destruction happens immediately when there are enough wound tokens), then if the unit is destroyed discard that unit).

    If an effect triggers from one of these steps, completely resolve that effect before moving onto the next step, if multiple effects could trigger the active player choose one of those effects to trigger and resolve, that effect is resolved completely, then the active player continues choosing effects that trigger and completely rolving them until all effects have been resolved that could trigger. If the effect deals damage that effect is completely resolved (all 3 steps) before completing the damage resolution of the current unit or effect.

    So in the above example sniper deals damge (no wounds placed) P2 plays sympathy pain, sympathy pain is completely resolved through till destruction of P1's Phoenixborn. P2 wins.
    Last edited by Phuzzworthy; 09-23-2015 at 12:31 PM.

  10. #10
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    So with a defender with spike armor it could kill the attacker of 2 health before attacker gives him wound tokens?

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