Why I hate Magic Drain and you should too

[Sauam]

I just saw Pepe started a thread at BGG about the use of MD, since I found no such thread here, I want to bring the discussion here as well and see what other players think about it

check here (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/671506/why-i-hate-magic-drain-and-you-should-too) for the said link

As for what I think about MD, I find it is perfectly fine, very well design, very well implemented card. Simply put, game needs these so call Catch Up card in order to prevent the game from swinging way way too fur into one end, aka "blow out"... without these police card to govern the game, it will not make a very fun game, more often than not

Take the TCG YGO for example, they have Mirror Force, Heavy Storm... both of which wipe clean every player's specific card on the board, preventing both player from just dumping their entire hand and steam roll into an auto-pilot mode

Then there is TCG Magic the gathering, they have wrath of god... etc but of course it is not as prominent in this game has a "land" system preventing player from dropping down everything... 1 land per turn means the game is forcing you to slow down and managing how much you can spend

in SW, there is no such system, you can drop all 5 card in the hand in order to mass summon, unlike land in mtg which are 1 per turn... so card like Magic Drain is there to govern the pace of the game... any player summon too much? they suffer. Now of course pepe's entire point is how MD forces player to genocide, to me that is far from the real fact. Yes, perhaps early glance one might see that MD forces such action but once you really think about it, it really doesnt, there is just so many way to counter genocide and not to mention almost every faction has their own CUE card... if I must change MD, I would probably make it draining 1 magic instead of 2 but at the current form, it is still fine... however I do have to say Pepe's own version of faction specific Magic Drain interesting

[PePe QuiCoSE]

read it. Thought it was a pile of crap.

[Sera Eldwyn's boyfriend]

Nice way of putting the MD card, a philosophical view actually. I like this post, I think it would give hope to the noobs who won't know how to counter MD. You don't give specific ways of countering, but you let them know it's possible.

[Tisroero]

Whether it's used against me or not, Magick Drain is never a major worry or focus during my games.

[rym]

I agree, Tisroero, that MD is never a focus or major concern, but there are certainly ways of countering the possible use of it from your opponent.

First and foremost, if you make sure you have as many - or less than - units as your opponent on the board, then they cannot use MD on you. And secondly, if they're holding it in hand in hopes of being able to use it later on, well then, you're forcing them to essentially play with 4-cards per round.

By my calculations, me having 5 cards to work with and them having 4 cards to work with would seem to work in my favor.

But at the end of the day, MD is not a concern. More troublesome is the likely champion they're going to summon with that Magic on the next turn or so. ;)

[Elcor13]

I don't know how many people read PePe's original post, but I think as big a part of it was the fact that it changes the way people play (having less units on the board.) So its not as much the strat as it is the fact that it changes how the game is played. Which is why I think the MS is the way that it is. Its very common friendly and there aren't a lot of CUEs. In fact, the only one that has MD are the Benders, who's whole MO is to make you play differently.

But yeah, honestly, as much as its annoying as all heck to play someone who's really good when they're not playing any commons at all and still kick your ass, the MS really changes that for the better.

[Tisroero]

I agree, Tisroero, that MD is never a focus or major concern, but there are certainly ways of countering the possible use of it from your opponent.

First and foremost, if you make sure you have as many - or less than - units as your opponent on the board, then they cannot use MD on you. And secondly, if they're holding it in hand in hopes of being able to use it later on, well then, you're forcing them to essentially play with 4-cards per round.

By my calculations, me having 5 cards to work with and them having 4 cards to work with would seem to work in my favor.

But at the end of the day, MD is not a concern. More troublesome is the likely champion they're going to summon with that Magic on the next turn or so. ;)

Exactly. These are usually my reasons for not seeing them as so threatening. Purposely being a douche and avoiding the prerequisites is fun as well. The squirming is fun to watch, and I know it works both ways cuz I've been stalled with reinforcements and Magick Drains myself and it wasn't pretty. Damn near lost against someone using a faction for their first time because I had been focusing too much on them.

[iglew]

I think those of you who are saying Magic Drain is no big deal and it never bothers you are crazy. Magic Drain is an extremely powerful card. Of course it hurts. Just like it hurts if someone puts a Fire Drake or Miti Mumway on the board. To say, "oh, MD is no big deal, I don't care about it" is nothing more than macho bravado.

But while MD is certainly a very strong card, I don't agree with Pepe's premise that it makes the game less fun. I think it makes the game more fun. All of the objections seem to center around the idea that CUEs give you an incentive to have less units on the board. I think that's a good thing. There's already plenty of strategic incentive to have more units on the board. The CUE is an interesting counter to that that gives rise to lots of tricky meta-strategy. It does make for quieter and more cerebral games, and situations where players cautiously move only a couple of units and turn over cards slowly as opposed to each player summoning lots of units and taking all three hits every turn, but I like that.

Every deck has some good cards, and you anticipate them. If I'm playing against an MD deck, I just take it for granted that somewhere in the course of the game my opponent is going to take four magic from me. Just like I know at some point in the game FK is going to play Legions of the Dead, JE is going to play Chant of Haste, GD is going to play Gror, etc. You do what you can to limit the damage, maybe clogging their hand for a while if they draw it early but can't use it well and don't want to build it either, and if by chance you manage to thwart it altogether then so much the better.

[Tisroero]

I think those of you who are saying Magic Drain is no big deal and it never bothers you are crazy. Magic Drain is an extremely powerful card. Of course it hurts. Just like it hurts if someone puts a Fire Drake or Miti Mumway on the board. To say, "oh, MD is no big deal, I don't care about it" is nothing more than macho bravado.


Because nothing is more fun than stroking my ego, right? I use the Magick Drain Decks all the time, I know their shortcomings enough to know they aren't as threatening as they may seem.

Of course they are good events. But when your opponent is playing to counter them you're straight effed half the time cuz you'll be swarmed due to mass common play or by the sheer factor of them never having enough Magick to make it worthwhile off the bat. And even then, if they're playing to counter the event then even when you play it they'll have prepared and anticipated the event to happen. As much as it may seem, Magick Drain is not a bullet. It's something you can prepare for, and take to the gut without rolling over dead.

There's just too much that can go wrong if you try to force the event's conditions, as typically one isn't playing a brain-dead opponent.

Magick Drain is honestly only useful if your opponent is trying to outnumber you as their strategy, or if they've made a particularly successful attack phase; neither of which is something you really want to see.

Playing the player comes into focus as well. If your opponent successfully predicts you have one, expect to be countered and shut down, holding a useless event that slows you down, but that you never let go of due to the psychological value that Magick Drain has garnered.

It'll change the game's typical play, but it's not so much powerful as it is something that you'll just need to watch out for.

[airdroppers]

Magic Drain sucks balls.

When I play against my little brother I just build it as Magic because it's a mean card.

It's not a catch up card either, it doesn't balance the game. I can have 10 Magic with your Summoner down to 2 life and still use Magic Drain twice in a row.

They need to stop making Magic Drain events they are just plain annoying. I am sure everyone knows how to play against it, but it's still a douchey card.

[Sauam]

I cannot even count how many times I held on to a magic drain and never be able to activate it until super late game where it dont even matter anymore, those are the games where I've lost or come very close to losing, where I could of just toss it into the magic pile and could of win... holding to one useless card in hand really hurt early game, especially true where you have MD and a Champ (hoping to drain them to summon that champ)... then it never happens

One thing everyone need to take note is that, all your enemy need to do is have 1 more unit than you and even now you can use MD, you are also stuck with no summon for that turn if you want to use MD

the only time MD really shine is where enemy has 2 or more unit than you so you can summon AND drain... if your enemy does indeed has that much more, I believe is safe to say MD is more than deserve to be play

as for countering genocide, just goes rampage on their side and down their field to only their summoner left, yes they can play MD but those 2 magic they drain are the unit you just brutally murder anyways, and now they have to summon something big to catch up on field position or forever lose field for the rest of the game, trust me, it happens a lot where you can already tell how the games will end on the first 6 or so total turns (3 turn each side)

[Quintaton16]

I don't know how many people read PePe's original post, but I think as big a part of it was the fact that it changes the way people play (having less units on the board.) So its not as much the strat as it is the fact that it changes how the game is played.

I disagree. Summoner Wars has always favored efficient play, and the removal of Magic Drain from the game would not change that. In a game like Magic the Gathering, where all your Magic supply is renewed every round, there is truly no reason not to play every creature you draw. That means a card like Wrath of God (which kills every creature on the board), actually changes the game in a significant way, because the anticipation of such a card is really the only reason for you to keep things in your hand when you have the Magic to play them.

In Summoner Wars, on the other hand, the attack and move activation mechanic means that you don't have much reason to Summon units past the number you can maneuver. Further, Summoning a Unit you don't need is actually a disadvantage because you could otherwise build it as Magic.

So Magic Drain doesn't change the game because the game already encourages you to Summon only as many Units as you can control.

The way I think about Magic Drain is that it will never set me back more than one turn. Sure, it's inconvenient when I no longer have the ability to summon a Champion I want, but I can still build magic and get it the turn after. Likewise, it will give my opponent quite a bit less Magic than he could have gotten if he had waited an extra turn to build it.

Compare that to the strategy I would have to play to avoid Magic Drain at all costs and/or count on using it on my opponent. by allowing my opponent to dictate how many Units I have on the board, rather than how many I think are useful, I lose a good deal of efficiency, and potentially leave myself vulnerable to bad matchups if I'm determined to only bring out Champions.

[Sauam]

snip

I agree with every single letter Quintaton types here... without MD or not, SW's mechanic already dictates how player should not over summon anyways, all MD did is grant an additional method/strategy to play this game

With MD, genocidal is now a viable play style, albeit a risky one since as mentioned, there is a few way to counter that... but without House MD (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0412142/), I fear we will have games where a player has bad hand and losing, then the opponent will just massively push EVERYTHING and wins. Ultimately making the game based on the first 10 card draw

like I said, I very much like the inclusion of MD, it governs, it change play style, it catches up... very well designed card, really.

[Elcor13]

I agree with every single letter Quintaton types here... without MD or not, SW's mechanic already dictates how player should not over summon anyways, all MD did is grant an additional method/strategy to play this game

With MD, genocidal is now a viable play style, albeit a risky one since as mentioned, there is a few way to counter that... but without House MD (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0412142/), I fear we will have games where a player has bad hand and losing, then the opponent will just massively push EVERYTHING and wins. Ultimately making the game based on the first 10 card draw

like I said, I very much like the inclusion of MD, it governs, it change play style, it catches up... very well designed card, really.

Then why is there a thread about how you hate it -_-

[Tisroero]

Then why is there a thread about how you hate it -_-

xD he's referencing Pepe's article.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

this thread made me realize I don't really hate MD, I hate Elcor13.

[Elcor13]

this thread made me realize I don't really hate MD, I hate Elcor13.

:D Job well done then.

[joepinion]

Sorry for bringing up a dead thread, but...

Last night I played my first game with Rallul's Mercs. It was vs. Abua's Jungle Elves. It was... SO... MUCH... FUN.

Units everywhere, big swings, big combos, big plays, dramatic moments.

Part of why it was so fun? It was pure balls out Summoner Wars play, not too much turtling, all maneuvering and calculating and strategizing. Best of all? No Magic Drains.

It seemed so different than my games lately involving the PE and GD. Nothing kills the fun for me more than facing these factions and worrying about Magic Drain, killing most of my own starting units and holding back units that I'd love to have on the board. And why do I have to worry? Because these factions are so gosh darn good that they'll out-efficiency you into oblivion if you make things like Magic Drain too easy for them.

I guess I don't mind it too much vs. the CL, BD and FK since they have more weaknesses to exploit and a MD doesn't seem as devastating from them for some reason. (Not that it's fun to face the Benders.)

Anyway, I was just thinking about this stuff and wondering if people have some updated thoughts on this topic, since it's been over 6 months since PePe sparked the debate.

[glenn3e]

I'd rather they kept producing factions with no MD. I suppose they I don't mind Summoning Surges, since there's some nice valid tactics with them, but do limit the number of them in future factions.

Some factions can still function without MD like the Filth. The problem with them is, once their down, they're pretty much out. Its very hard to comeback if you loss too many Mutations to the enemy, and thereby giving them a burgeoning Magic Pile. Its a challenge and I welcome it, but sometimes CUEs are necessary evil for some decks...

[PePe QuiCoSE]

We have a convert!

[glenn3e]

No MD (or CUEs for that matter) also encourages Common-play.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

Well, Reinforcements does both, encourage Champ play (low unit, big power) into Common play. There is nothing wrong with CUE in essence, I just don't like the implementation of Magic Drain in most factions.

[glenn3e]

Well, Reinforcements does both, encourage Champ play (low unit, big power) into Common play. There is nothing wrong with CUE in essence, I just don't like the implementation of Magic Drain in most factions.

Fair enough. I'd like to see more Reinforcements or Summoning Surges then, instead of MDs for the future factions if CUEs are required. Or maybe new types of CUEs.

[joepinion]

I'd definitely like to see counters to the current CUE...

For example as PePe originally suggested, making an "if you have less champions" card. Or how about "choose an opponent; if you had less magic in your magic pile than that opponent at the beginning of your turn" although that's kinda clunky.

[esper88]

I agree that its Magic Drain in PE and GD that are the real perpetrators. In the other factions that have MD it doesn't feel like overkill but a strong tool in their arsenal. PE and GD didn't need the help, but they got it anyway. It was a simpler time back then, though.

Reinforcements is inherently balanced, I feel, because you need to not only have Reinforcements but the 2 commons. Not to mention that you could end up overextending by playing those 2 commons (sometimes).

Summoning Surge is balanced because it's just card advantage rather than screwing up the opponent's plans. Not to mention getting those 3 (5) cards in the discard can be annoying early game. This is +2 card advantage, whereas Magic Drain is +3 (counting negatives to opponent as positives)... and MD is easier to pull off.

Into Darkness requires the opponent to play 2 commons, so that mitigates it's playability slightly. You're depriving the opponent of the magic they paid to summon those commons (0-4 magic), but you're also depriving yourself of the 2 magic you would have gotten from killing those 2 commons. This is a max of +5 advantage if you count the discarded cards as advantage. But if those commons were wounded and/or have already served a purpose, the value goes down. Point is, there's a handful of mitigating factors that limit the card's advantages.

Magic Drain is the easiest to use and the biggest advantage. +3 card advantage that can be prevented if the opponent limits their resources by only having 1 or 0 magic.

I haven't read the OP in a while... hope I didn't just say everything it already said again.

[joepinion]

I think that's a good summary of why MD is so frustrating compared to the other CUEs.

I do have hope that we can continue to develop strategies to advance the metagame. For example, when you see the PE taking their unit count down to 1-2 units, in the right situation I think you can just spend all your magic and not build any. If you end up with 5 units on the board, it's not like the PE player can attack them all at once anyway. Start attacking their walls and make them come at you a little.

Also, 0-costers help all of this, and now every faction has 0-costers thanks to Apprentice Mages.

[Dapuma]

The main two factions I play online are GD and PE - although the mercs seem amazing once i get them

GD are my favorite for wall destruction and Gror - and PE, i like their champions a lot

(indirect damage gror and fire drake = good)

However I certainly play to the strengths of the deck which are mana drain (GD has a lot more)

I do generally play to make sure i get to use the event (if possible) then use that to start a counter attack when you get the game swing

I do think there are good points on either side, and it does change the way I play when i know i am facing it - that being said i believe it is a faction flavor at the moment - however if i get good enough with GD so only a mana drain faction can beat me then i guess we know its broke :D

[killercactus]

Just play Benders and keep your unit count at 1-2 units. Then they have to build Magic Drain or let you use it.

[Freddy Finger]

I think magic drain itself is fine. Is having them in an already pretty powerful faction that what make them too powerful. The dwarves have some of best champion and magic drain make them killers. Also drawing magic drain too early can suck when opponent don't let you use it.