The Book of Kynder

[Phoenixio]

The Book of Kynder
Champion of the Deep Dwarves - Master Set

http://www.summonerwars.com/DD_Kynder.jpg

Bio: Kynder wades into battle with his massive hammer, splattering his foes with mighty swipes. His mage abilities throw unworthy foes from his path, allowing him to pursue choice targets. He is driven by his hatred of all things foreign, for such is the teaching of the Quirzlwyrm, the subterranean god of the Deep Dwarves.

Rulings and Clarifications
Q: Can I Mage Push a Summoner?
A: Yes.

Q: If Kynder use Mage Push on an enemy unit, and as a reason of that push, the enemy unit kills another unit, which player gets the magic?
A: Kynder's controller.

Community Contributions
N/A

[Sauam]

Not sure which I like more. This dude here or Lun

I do like Kynder work with any unit w/o restriction

[Dustin]

So according to the card text, Kynder cannot move another Kynder using Mage Push, correct?

[dyeyk2000]

So according to the card text, Kynder cannot move another Kynder using Mage Push, correct?

And you can't move the Kynder itself.

[Sera Eldwyn's boyfriend]

Kynder is going to be very usefull for an unexpected shove of a unit at the opponents summoner. I already have some ideas that could work very well with Kynder.

[brightknight_216]

Yes I am thinking a good combination will be Kynder and Vermin and Speargrounder.

In a free build deck, this can be useful with Elephants and have them Trample over the enemies. Others will be units with Riders ability such as Cavalry Knights and Beast Riders. This will allow the player to easily get near the Summoner.

Alternatively, this can be good support to Sin-Sin, to allow her position herself to take control of some important units.

[eyalswalrus]

if I use kynder to move a unit with trample and I kill a unit with it, who gets the magic?
I am not talking about free build situations, I am talking about might happen in 4 players games.

[hahma]

I would think that the player controlling Kynder would get the magic if he uses Push to move an opponent's unit with Trample and destroys a unit with it. The unit got destroyed during his turn as a result of a power on a card he controlled, so he should get the magic IMO.

[killercactus]

I would think that the player controlling Kynder would get the magic if he uses Push to move an opponent's unit with Trample and destroys a unit with it. The unit got destroyed during his turn as a result of a power on a card he controlled, so he should get the magic IMO.

I think I disagree, though I'm not sure. Kynder only moved the Trample unit - Trample is what's actually causing the damage, and that's an ability of the Unit he moved. Therefore, I think the Unit's controller would get the magic.

I think the same goes for a Vermin moved by Kynder that isn't controlled by the DD.

[Infection Reflection]

Hey, you could even bring a summoner forward with his ability! Elien, come forward and DIE!!!:D

[sitnam90]

You definitely could and it'd be a nasty trick too :)

[brightknight_216]

I think I disagree, though I'm not sure. Kynder only moved the Trample unit - Trample is what's actually causing the damage, and that's an ability of the Unit he moved. Therefore, I think the Unit's controller would get the magic.

I think the same goes for a Vermin moved by Kynder that isn't controlled by the DD.

I think Killercactus is right. Kynder merely pushes the unit and does not control it like what Sin-Sin does with her ability. Hmmmph, this made be rethink Kynder's utility in the game. Somehow, we have to ask ourselves whether we want to give the opponents mana at our turn or working to eliminate the opponent's units would prove to be a better choice. I think this decisions can be critical.

I think Mage Push can be also be treated as an 'Escape' ability but is activated by him as a third party unit. This can be a bane to the Deceivers as Kynder can have the unit retreat if it fails in their attack to finish off the Deceiver - this allow for a hit and run approach.

[Phoenixio]

Kynder merely pushes the unit and does not control it like what Sin-Sin does with her ability.


Actually, it's Kynder's controller that gets the magic. I was pretty certain it would be the case, and Colby confirmed it to me.


Hmmmph, this made be rethink Kynder's utility in the game.

Not really. I mean, pushing a Unit with Trample is not that common, and it won't necessarily kill a unit. Trample and Flight are not that easy to trigger, or at least, to as easy as people seem to think. This should not affect Kynder's potential: he's a monster.

Where Lun is a common killing machine, Kynder excels at killing champions. They're both ultra potent champions. Sprog is less flashy, but has range, decent life, and a somewhat cool ability.

[the mouth of sauron]

he could be good, but I don't think I want the deep dwarves so far, I'll just keep reading further

[Elcor13]

he could be good, but I don't think I want the deep dwarves so far, I'll just keep reading further

Out of curiosity why don't you want them? I'll admit that they take a while to get used to, and I am nowhere near good at them, but it is very rewarding to get off a crazy combo with them :)

[brightknight_216]

Where Lun is a common killing machine, Kynder excels at killing champions. They're both ultra potent champions. Sprog is less flashy, but has range, decent life, and a somewhat cool ability.


Hi Phoenixio. I'm just curious on how Kynder can be used to kill Champions. :confused:

Maybe I am not seeing something here. :D

[Phoenixio]

Kynder makes power plays. He comes in, he pushes stuff, and the rest of your troops get the kill. Since his ability can be used at any time, you can attack with a unit, push the target, and attack the same target with other units. He's thus a good tool to better concentrate fire on a target without putting the Gem Mages or Tundle into too much danger.

Tundle and Lun together make a formidable pair too, and avoid risking low-life Lun to a counterattack.

[brightknight_216]

Oh I see. Thanks for the info Phoenixio. :D

[sitnam90]

I'm a bit confused as to the effect of this ability. Can yopu only push units away from kynder or can you also pull them in?

[Phoenixio]

I'm a bit confused as to the effect of this ability. Can yopu only push units away from kynder or can you also pull them in?

You get to move the target Unit any way you want, but max 2 spaces. No straight line restriction, and no specific direction either.

Kynder is a monster.

[Sauam]

Actually, it's Kynder's controller that gets the magic. I was pretty certain it would be the case, and Colby confirmed it to me.

I take it that the game's rule is the "player" that cause the destroy gets the magic, rather than "unit" that causes the destroy? Is this the ruling for the game so we can better understand future cases?... It would make perfect sense in this case where Kyder pushes enemy unit and gets the kill

Also yes, Kyder is THE champoin, not Lun as I first thought it would be... his "at any time" ability really one upped Lun's... in fact, I learn any ability that triggers at any time really it's in their own class in SW

[lildrummahboi34]

So what happens if Kynder wants to push a unit throught Vine Walls?

also, can he push units through other cards? I'd assume not, but there is no "clear" restriction on his card.

[Phoenixio]

Kynder can't push units through other cards but Vine Walls. If he tries to push somebody through a Vine Wall, the normal Vine Wall rules apply: you must roll a dice when trying to move out of the Vine Wall to see if it's possible or if you end up getting wounded.

Of course it's the pushed unit that gets wounded, not Kynder.

There might not be a reference to "clear" on the card only to avoid the situation where people would think they can't move over Vine Walls. Mage Push essentially gives a normal movement to a unit within 2 spaces of Kynder.

[Sauam]

Phoenixio, wasnt it said somewhere that no ability can move unit off, on or through a Vine Wall?

I was under the impression that Mage Push cannot move unit on vine wall

[Phoenixio]

You might be referring to the Flight/Greater Flight/Engage, when there is already a unit and a Vine Wall on the spot you want to move over. Otherwise I'll check out, but I'm not sure there's a line in the rules making Vine Walls "ability blockers".

I'm on it and checking this one out in detail.

[Phoenixio]

A Unit can never use a Special Ability to move through a Unit that is on a Vine Wall.

This is taken directly from the rules. That must have been what you were referring to.

I couldn't find any other line that limited special abilities. So Vine Walls don't refrain you from using an ability to move a unit on or through a Vine Wall. It does however block you from using Flight/Greater Flight and other such abilities if there is already a Unit on the said Vine Wall.

[Sauam]

You might be referring to the Flight/Greater Flight/Engage, when there is already a unit and a Vine Wall on the spot you want to move over. Otherwise I'll check out, but I'm not sure there's a line in the rules making Vine Walls "ability blockers".

I'm on it and checking this one out in detail.

ya, I got it mixed up, my bad.
vine wall just say no moving over unit thats on it, never mention anywhere about anything else.

I dont have enough games with SO yet as it can be tell.

[Tisroero]

The more I look at the stats behind this card, the more I realize that he's one of the best champions. Now if only we could do something 'bout that melee...

[sitnam90]

The more I look at the stats behind this card, the more I realize that he's one of the best champions. Now if only we could do something 'bout that melee...

I always forget he is a melee champ. Something about him makes me think he is a ranged fighter.

[esper88]

2 attack 6 life is already good enough to compete with a lot of other 5 costers. Throw in that outstanding ability and you've got a champ of a champ.

[Freddy Finger]

Kynder is now on my top 3 strongest champion list, his spec is almost mook like but has a better ability in my opinion. Mook is slowly falling off my top champion list.

[Airstone]

Kynder makes power plays. He comes in, he pushes stuff, and the rest of your troops get the kill. Since his ability can be used at any time, you can attack with a unit, push the target, and attack the same target with other units. He's thus a good tool to better concentrate fire on a target without putting the Gem Mages or Tundle into too much danger.

.

This is a pretty awesome combo.

With a few Gem Mages and Kynder (and optionally a scholar and Wake the Father Gem) and you can have a ton of dice to blast away a champ without spreading yourself too thin.

Definitely one of my favorite new champs / factions.

[Sauam]

melee 2/6//5 with one of the greatest ability in the game? kynder is down right top tier. Mook had been push off from my top three as well, pretty much by this guy haha

[airdroppers]

I haven't seen anyone mention this, but this guy prevents wall choking. Use Push before Summoning and you probably caught your opponent off guard.

I did this in a game, my friend had this face :eek:

[kyo]

Can I use Mage Push enemy's Deceiver or my common unit at the beginning of my turn to avoid Stun?
(before I draw)

[glenn3e]

I think the Deceiver's effect still triggers since it happens at the beginning of the turn also. But need clarification from the rule gurus here.

[Phoenixio]

I think Stun can't be avoided by Mage Push. My logic is the following:

Mage Push can be used anytime during "your turn". If it's not your turn, you can't use it. Your turn begins with the "beginning of your turn", a weird undefined event in the turn phase sequence that triggers the Draw Phase. From then on, it's your turn and you can use abilities such as Mage Push.

[Barliman]

I think Stun can't be avoided by Mage Push. My logic is the following:

Mage Push can be used anytime during "your turn". If it's not your turn, you can't use it. Your turn begins with the "beginning of your turn", a weird undefined event in the turn phase sequence that triggers the Draw Phase. From then on, it's your turn and you can use abilities such as Mage Push.
Actually, the official FAQ says:

Q: Some cards do something “at the start of your turn.” When is that exactly?
A: The start of your turn happens immediately before your Draw Phase (or your Movement Phase on the first turn of the starting player).

Since some cards can do things before the Draw Phase, I see no reason why Mage Push should be forbidden from being used then as well.

EDIT: Sorry, I was tired when I wrote that, and missed the question about the Deceiver's Stun. I agree that Mage Push cannot avoid it, since it's already the start of your turn.

[Clayface]

This just came up in a game with my brother. Can Kynder move one space, force push a unit, and then move his remaining space?

[Someonelse]

Since during movement is at 'anytime on your turn' , I would think he can, same way Silts can use his ability halfway through a movement.

Though I'm no rule guru.

[thenightsshadow]

That is correct. Kynder can move 1 space, push a Unit, then finish his movement.

[Fritz_Mahoney]

Dwarf vs. Dwarf (guild vs. deep) game with the Mrs.... came up with a few questions.

1) Kinder -- can he push someone over / through a wall? It doesn't say "clear" spaces. (Sorry, just read the rest of the pages where you guys talked about vine walls. I'm thinking the answer here is "no" although it was never spelled out explicitly)
2) Lun -- can he not use Gem of Calling if / when he's adjacent to a Defender? ("After moving Lun..." but the defender disallows his movement)
3) Kinder -- he cannot move someone that is adjacent to a defender, correct? ("unit cannot be moved" ...not "unit cannot move"...under his own power) ...or even move someone past a defender (once adjacent the unit cannot be moved).

Thoughts?

~Fritz

[Phoenixio]

1) Nope, you can't push over Walls. But like you said, you can indeed push on Vine Walls, and then maybe out of it (or deal some indirect damage through Vine Walls).
2) Indeed, he must move, and the Defender prevents that from happening. So he can't use Gem of Calling.
3)Indeed, Defenders prevent Kynder from targeting some units. However, do make the difference between enemy and allied units, meaning you could push other Guild Dwarves your opponent controls past Defenders, but not your own units.

[Dsims37]

I thought units could move 0 to use abilities based around movements. It just has to use one of your moves for the turn

[Phoenixio]

You can indeed "move 0" and trigger movement-based abilities, but it requires a movement. Defenders prevent you from moving, even if only 0. There's a difference between moving 0 and not moving, so you can't use your abilities when you are next to a Defender.

[superkrm]

Does Summon the Night affect Mage Push?

[killercactus]

Does Summon the Night affect Mage Push?

Summon the Night only restricts movement during the movement phase, so Mage Push is only affected if Kynder tried to use it during the movement phase.

[Sgt. Squirrel]

Can Kynder move one space, use mage push, then move his other space while or before the unit affected by mage push has moved? Or do you have to complete the unit's movement from mage push before you can continue kynder's movement?

[esper88]

Can Kynder move one space, use mage push, then move his other space while or before the unit affected by mage push has moved? Or do you have to complete the unit's movement from mage push before you can continue kynder's movement?

You need to complete the Mage Push before the second move. What were you trying to pull off with this? Khan Queso tech's or something?