The Book of Javelineers

[Phoenixio]

The Book of Javelineers
Common of the Sand Goblins - Master Set

http://www.summonerwars.com/SG_Javelineer.jpg

Bio: The wastes of Tralia are home to terrible beasts able to survive in the harsh clime: six-legged trusks that can drain a body of blood in mere minutes, the marrow-sucking gnowzas, and of course the dreaded sikka-beetle giants that leave behind nothing but skin. Yet the Cave Goblins have thrived on Tralia, primarily due to their ability to hide. The Javelineers are masters of striking their prey from afar, bringing down larger targets while never losing their own concealment.

Rulings and Clarifications
Q: Can Elien use his Fire Blast on a Javelineer?
A: He can, but only at melee. Since his ability is "instead of attacking normally", it is considered an attack, and must thus be triggered adjacent to the Javelineer for it to work.


Q: How does Camouflage work with attacks that affect multiple Units?
A: When a Special Ability such as Gror's Hammer Quake or Violet's Whirling Blade says that other units are "affected" by an attack,
for all intents and purposes, those units are also being attacked. So, when Gror uses Hammer Quake, all Units with the Camouflage
ability that are not adjacent to Gror will not be affected by that Hammer Quake. "Instead of attacking normally" abilities function similarly. Units that have the Camouflage ability cannot be hit by
Breath of Flames unless they are adjacent to Fire Drake when he uses it. They can however be within the range of the ability, but won't be affected.

Community Contributions

When does Camouflage protect my unit? by iglew (http://www.plaidhatgames.com/sum_forums/member.php?u=381)


1. Other units "affected" by attack: Gror, Violet
Logic: Per FAQ, any time a unit is affected by an attack, it is considered to be attacked.
Conclusion: The camouflaged unit is immune if it is not adjacent, but its presence in the area of effect does not prevent the attack from being made against others.

2. "Instead of attacking normally": Fire Drake, Jungle Guards, Prince Elien
Logic: Per FAQ, when a unit has an ability labeled this way, it counts as an attack.
Conclusion: The camouflaged unit is immune if it is not adjacent, but its presence in the area of effect does not prevent the attack from being made against others.

3. "Instead of attacking": Grognack, Sin-Sin, Jacob Eldwyn
Logic: Per FAQ, when a unit has an ability labeled this way, it is not an attack.
Conclusion: The camouflaged unit is not immune from this effect.

4. Other: Controller, Hawk, Krusk, Kynder, Lun, Tacullu
Logic: Although these units have powers that seem sort of like attacks, the wording does not define them as attacks in any way.
Conclusion: The camouflaged unit is not immune from this effect.

[freezinpee]

I'm curious how the drake's flames work for the javelineers? What if the javelineer is the second unit to be hit by the drake's flames? Do the flames stop there and the third unit is safe? Or does the Javelineer just ignore what would be an auto wound?

[killercactus]

I'm curious how the drake's flames work for the javelineers? What if the javelineer is the second unit to be hit by the drake's flames? Do the flames stop there and the third unit is safe? Or does the Javelineer just ignore what would be an auto wound?

I would say that the Javelineer cannot be the "chosen figure" if it isn't adjacent, but it can be in the line of fire and still take a wound.

[freezinpee]

Is that an official ruling?

[Phoenixio]

It's like Elien's Fire Blast. The Fire Drake is a "instead of attacking normally", so it's still an attack. The Javelineers requires the attacker to be adjacent, so he can't be in the line if not adjacent to the Drake.

Added a Q/A to make it clear to those who didn't interprete it the same as Elien's Fire Blast.

[chardris77]

So would the fire "jump" him?

[killercactus]

It's like Elien's Fire Blast. The Fire Drake is a "instead of attacking normally", so it's still an attack. The Javelineers requires the attacker to be adjacent, so he can't be in the line if not adjacent to the Drake.

Added a Q/A to make it clear to those who didn't interprete it the same as Elien's Fire Blast.

He can't be in the line at all?

OK, so what happens here?

F X J S

F = Fire Drake
X = Empty Space
J = Javelineer
S = Shaman

The Fire Drake wants to choose the Shaman for his Fire Blast. Are you telling me he can't choose the Shaman? Or that he can, and the Javelineer just isn't affected by it?

[froembum]

Also does the Javelineers ability prevent Violet and the JE Archers from shooting a unit standing behind them?

[killercactus]

Also does the Javelineers ability prevent Violet and the JE Archers from shooting a unit standing behind them?

I think Violet is going to be the same ruling as the Fire Drake.

JE Archers are a different story, though. I see no reason that a JE Archer can't shoot a unit that is behind a Javelineer. All Camouflage does is prevent the Javelineer from being attacked - it says nothing about units behind it being attacked.

[Elcor13]

If the Fire Drake or Violet or Gror or whoever are targeting a unit that is not the Javelineer then it can be hit. However they cannot specifically attack the Jav.

JE Archers can shoot over them though, as long as they're not shooting at another Jav ;)

[Phoenixio]

JE Archers are a different story, though. I see no reason that a JE Archer can't shoot a unit that is behind a Javelineer. All Camouflage does is prevent the Javelineer from being attacked - it says nothing about units behind it being attacked.

True for the JE Archer. One can shoot through them.

As for the Fire Drake and Violet, the idea is that their active ability contradicts a passive ability. Just like the Archangel with his Greater Flight when he tries to move over a card that is adjacent to a Defender.

I thus think the Fire Drake and Violet can't attack through a Javelineer, but I'm still working on it. Not easy to word out either.

[froembum]

Forgot about Gror. I had figured the JE Archers would be okay, but I've been surprised before.

[Elcor13]

I think the idea is that it can't be the focus of the attack. For instance, the Fire Drake can attack two units in front of a Guardian Knight as long as that Guardian Knight is also part of the attack. Even though its targeting the GK it still does the wound to the other units.

So even though the Fire Drake isn't targeting it, it still hits like Violet or Gror would hit because the attack doesn't discriminate. Jav's ability doesn't prevent them from getting hit, just from being attacked, if that distinction makes sense.

And JE Archers just can't shoot over walls or over a GK when they're next to it (unless they're shooting another GK that is further away ;) )

[Sauam]

...wouldnt it be like Archangel vs Defender case?

Jav cannot be the target of Fire Drake's attack if not adjacent, therefore it is an illegal move? Fire Drake must choose to attack elsewhere

[Elcor13]

But the Fire Drake CAN attack a unit behind the Javelineer.

U
J

D

In this case, when the Drake attacks the unit or wall or whatever, then the Javelineer also gets hit in the same way that it would if Gror attacked. Its power doesn't prevent it from taking wounds, just from being attacked.

And the Angel is different because the Archangel can't itself move past the Defender, so it would have to stop on a space that isn't open, which it can't do.

[killercactus]

But the Fire Drake CAN attack a unit behind the Javelineer.

U
J

D

In this case, when the Drake attacks the unit or wall or whatever, then the Javelineer also gets hit in the same way that it would if Gror attacked. Its power doesn't prevent it from taking wounds, just from being attacked.

And the Angel is different because the Archangel can't itself move past the Defender, so it would have to stop on a space that isn't open, which it can't do.

Wow - that would mean that I actually got one right.

Maybe I'm finally getting the hang of this game.

[Sauam]

...For instance, the Fire Drake can attack two units in front of a Guardian Knight as long as that Guardian Knight is also part of the attack.

Exactly why I believe from the wording, Jav cannot be attacked by Fire Drake. Simply because Jav cannot be within that said attack (cannot be targeted)

... kinda confusing, this must drive new player crazy haha, I cannot wait to explain this to my friends

[Elcor13]

The Jav does receive a wound however, even though it is not being 'attacked.' Just want to make that clear :)

Jacob Eldwyn's power also works against the Jav because it effects all units in the radius, I think. My reasoning behind this is that if you rolled separately for each unit (like Sandstorm or like a Berserker) then you would not be able to target the Jav. (Sandstorm works on Jav's btw b/c it is not an attack.) Because Heaven's Rain effects all units then it would effect a Jav for the same reason that Fire Breath would.

[Phoenixio]

Wow - that would mean that I actually got one right.

Elcor and I aren't agreeing on this one just yet. The issue is pending Colby's approval, as I would see both solutions working. So no conclusion before we get his version!

The thing about Javelineers is that they can't be attacked by units who aren't adjacent. Fire Breath is an attack, and thus can't touch the Javelineer if he isn't adjacent to the attacker. The card chosen by Fire Drake is not the only "attacked" unit, so the Javelineer would create a contradiction of rules with no precedence. Thus, the Breath shouldn't be allowed.

Elcor's version would permit those cases since he considers that only the unit adjacent to Gror, or the card chosen by the Drake, or the target of Violet are being attacked. In such a case, all units in between aren't attacked and thus suffer the wounds without condition. That would allow Gror, Violet and the Drake to wound indirectly the Javelineers. However, a Javelineer couldn't be the card chosen by the Drake or the last in the line of Violet.


However, while writing these lines, I've checked the wording for Gror and Violet. They both use the expression "Units are affected by the attack". With such an expression, I'm quite convinced Gror and Violet work on Javelineers, since they aren't attacked directly, but affected by the attack. However, the Drake is still a no-no, cause the whole line of his Breath is the attack. The way Jacob is worded would also let me think he can't touch Javelineers, and thus can't use his ability if a Javelineer is within 3 spaces of Jacob.

It's kind of annoying in the case of Jacob, but I think this wording doesn't induce any contradiction anywhere...

[froembum]

I would argue the exact opposite if you were going to split them up. The Fire Drake and Jacob both place a wound marker while Violet and Gror roll an attack. If anything the Fire Drake and Jacob work while Violet and Gror do not.

[Sauam]

The thing about Javelineers is that they can't be attacked by units who aren't adjacent. Fire Breath is an attack, and thus can't touch the Javelineer if he isn't adjacent to the attacker. The card chosen by Fire Drake is not the only "attacked" unit, so the Javelineer would create a contradiction of rules with no precedence. Thus, the Breath shouldn't be allowed. That interpretation would rule out Violet and Gror too.

I have to say this version make more sense to me (although both are pretty good, just this make more)

[Sauam]

Ok... now a mind bender

2 vs 2

my partner place his GK in front of my Jav, opp's Fire drake now is super confused and explode internally :D:D

[Sera Eldwyn's boyfriend]

They are all versions of attacking so specifically, I don't think that Jacob or the Fire Drake would/should work.

[killercactus]

Ok... now a mind bender

2 vs 2

my partner place his GK in front of my Jav, opp's Fire drake now is super confused and explode internally :D:D

Still no big deal.

The Fire Drake has to choose a Guardian Knight as the "chosen card" if one is adjacent to it. If a Javelineer happens to be in the line of the chosen Guardian Knight, it takes a wound.

Done.

[Sauam]

Still no big deal.

The Fire Drake has to choose a Guardian Knight as the "chosen card" if one is adjacent to it. If a Javelineer happens to be in the line of the chosen Guardian Knight, it takes a wound.

Done.

You are just assuming Fire Drake and Javelineer work this way. Which is not even confirmed. What if Jav make it that Fire Drake cannot attack his way but yet GK force it to?

Also GK make Drake target him, not necessary need to choose him for Drake's attack (what we gather from another unit thread)

Just quick note though, in most game I've play, the word "cannot" always trumps "can"

[The Wall]

The Javelineer is going to be really good against the benders. They won't be able to attack him from range and getting adjacent would be too dangerous for those 1-life weaklings.

[Sera Eldwyn's boyfriend]

The Javelineer is going to be really good against the benders. They won't be able to attack him from range and getting adjacent would be too dangerous for those 1-life weaklings.

Give some credit to the Benders, they don't have to attack from range don't forget. Also, with the one attack of the Javelineer it's not guaranteed to get a hit.

[The Wall]

Give some credit to the Benders, they don't have to attack from range don't forget. Also, with the one attack of the Javelineer it's not guaranteed to get a hit.

I'm not saying the Benders are bad, I just think they'll have a little trouble with this match-up.

[Sauam]

The Javelineer is going to be really good against the benders. They won't be able to attack him from range and getting adjacent would be too dangerous for those 1-life weaklings.

How dare you speak badly about the almighty Bender? The all-seeing Gulldune shall brain control Oldin and cast Besiege the Wall upon you, placing 3 damage tokens ;)

Best screen name here btw

[Phoenixio]

The Fire Drake has to choose a Guardian Knight as the "chosen card" if one is adjacent to it. If a Javelineer happens to be in the line of the chosen Guardian Knight, it takes a wound.

Like Sauam said, we're not certain yet, so let's not make affirmation that might later be proved wrong.

However, in that special case, what is certain is that the Fire Drake could use his Breath on the Guardian Knight. I mean, as long as the Javelineer isn't in the line of the Breath, you can very well define a line of 1 space long that ends on the Guardian Knight! Guardian Knight wounded, but nothing else! No rule issue!

[Elcor13]

Although I still contend that Jacob, the Fire Drake, Gror, and Violet all can hit a Jav in some way or another (Jacob and Gror in general, Fire Drake and Violet if there's a unit behind the Jav for them to target) there is no way that you can wound the Jav by attacking the GK between the Drake and the Jav. The Drake says "Choose a card within 3 straight line spaces of Fire Drake. The chosen card and all cards between Fire Drake and the chosen card each receive 1 Wound Marker." So because the GK is in front of the Jav, only cards between the Drake and the GK would be wounded.

[The Wall]

How dare you speak badly about the almighty Bender? The all-seeing Gulldune shall brain control Oldin and cast Besiege the Wall upon you, placing 3 damage tokens ;)

Best screen name here btw

My last name actually is Wall.

[Lord_AndraK]

Ok I personally think that the Fire Drake and therefore Violet can attack through (and therefore wound) A Javelineer.

Example: Firedrake wishes to attack the Shaman behind this Javelineer.

XXXFXX
XXXXXX
XXXJXX
XXXSXX

F = Firedrake
J = Javelineer
S = Shaman

"Choose a card within 3 straight line spaces of Fire Drake. The chosen card and all cards between Fire Drake and the chosen card each receive 1 Wound Marker."

Fire drake never says he intends to attack the Javelineer. as highlighted it says to choose a card... so the Javelineer is not a Target (think of it like TCG targeting rules)
The javelineer as a side affect of being in-between the Attacks Target and the Attacks Source... takes a wound.:(

If there is no card for Firedrake to target then the attack cannot be made.

Also think Thematically ,and what is the Designers Intent.

Javelineer never says he cant be damaged by an attack or un-adjacent Unit.
just he can not be attacked by a un-adjacent Unit. (which is similar to saying he cannot be a target for a un-adjacent units attack)

Firedrake, Violet and Gror never specify any other target for their attack than a single card.

I still would like some Official clarification, but I'm confident Firedrake and gror still work against the Javelineer.

[Sauam]

...so the Javelineer is not a Target (think of it like TCG targeting rules)...

Thing is for some reason, TCG don't apply here in SW, I was assuming how the word Target meant as well just like you using tcg terms... but as seen on VG's GK thread, the word target doesnt mean the same here in SW world

It was never officially clarify but apparently the word Choose means target and Target mean being in the attack

So using tcg term don't work here, also it was never clear how attacking works in SW, such as phases within attacking phases... or when you attacking a unit, does it mean you first declare attacking, then choose a attacking target, then roll the dice... or are they just "happens"

In summary, the word Choose =/= Target as one would assume
So Fire Drake's attack does put Jav within it's attacking target... but that don't matter here anyways, as the issue here is Jav saying he cannot be attacked but Fire Drakes ability is one

[Sauam]

My last name actually is Wall.

Now your screen name's even more cooler

[hahma]

Ok I personally think that the Fire Drake and therefore Violet can attack through (and therefore wound) A Javelineer.

Example: Firedrake wishes to attack the Shaman behind this Javelineer.

XXXFXX
XXXXXX
XXXJXX
XXXSXX

F = Firedrake
J = Javelineer
S = Shaman

"Choose a card within 3 straight line spaces of Fire Drake. The chosen card and all cards between Fire Drake and the chosen card each receive 1 Wound Marker."

Fire drake never says he intends to attack the Javelineer. as highlighted it says to choose a card... so the Javelineer is not a Target (think of it like TCG targeting rules)
The javelineer as a side affect of being in-between the Attacks Target and the Attacks Source... takes a wound.:(

If there is no card for Firedrake to target then the attack cannot be made.

Also think Thematically ,and what is the Designers Intent.

Javelineer never says he cant be damaged by an attack or un-adjacent Unit.
just he can not be attacked by a un-adjacent Unit. (which is similar to saying he cannot be a target for a un-adjacent units attack)

Firedrake, Violet and Gror never specify any other target for their attack than a single card.

I still would like some Official clarification, but I'm confident Firedrake and gror still work against the Javelineer.


I agree with this. Receiving damage is not the same as being attacked. So the Javelineer should be able to take damage when it is between a Firedrake/Violet and the chosen/attacked unit.

Gror's Hammer Quake should also be able to wound the Javelineer that is not adjacent to him, as it says, "When Gror attacks, all cards within 2 spaces of Gror are affected by the attack. Gror is not affected by Hammer Quake."

[Infection Reflection]

I think that the Javelineers would still be hit by the FD's Breath ONLY if the Javelineer is not the target, since the flame kinda passes THROUGH whatever is in the way, so if the Javelineer is not the targert, I don't think its a problem. Same with Gror and Violet. Being camoflaged is not going to protect you from a quake of any kind, and Violet's weapons punch THROUGH whoever is between her and her target, snd I doubt she needs to see what her weapon will pass through in order to hit it. It's almost like shooting into a bush with a gun and hitting the man standing there in complete camoflage by accident.

[killercactus]

4 pages ago....


He can't be in the line at all?

OK, so what happens here?

F X J S

F = Fire Drake
X = Empty Space
J = Javelineer
S = Shaman

The Fire Drake wants to choose the Shaman for his Fire Blast. Are you telling me he can't choose the Shaman? Or that he can, and the Javelineer just isn't affected by it?

If this ruling is anything other than "FD can target the Shaman, and the Javelineer also takes a wound", then I'll sell all my cards.

I don't plan on selling my cards....

[Phoenixio]

If this ruling is anything other than "FD can target the Shaman, and the Javelineer also takes a wound", then I'll sell all my cards.

I don't plan on selling my cards....

Please don't.

The problem we have is with the very few instances of "instead of attacking normally". There are only three of those abilities now, and one of them is easy to rule out (Elien's Fire Blast). The problem comes from the Drake's Fire Breath and Jacob's Heaven Rain, and we're deep into discussions on the subject. I mean, their skills clearly say they are attacks, and the Javelineer clearly says he can't be attacked by non-adjacent units.

We're pretty much all agreeing though that Violet and Gror do wound the Javelineer indirectly, as they have a target they attack, and other units aren't target but suffer indirectly.

There's also the thing about the Choosing clause, which a lot of people believe is the same as targetting. This is far from evident, and even if it was true, it wouldn't solve the Jacob issue. To me, in the Fire Drake's case, the choosing is only defining a length for the skill which affects all cards within that range equally. If it was worded more like Violet, than I'd have to say Choosing is the same as Targetting.

It's not easy, I can't work properly until this issue is solved. We're working on it though, if that can ease some worries.

[killercactus]

That was a sarcastic remark - I'm not Robyn Hode.

However, I do expect it to be ruled that way. There's no reason a Drake shouldn't be able to choose a figure behind a Javelineer, and I really don't think any figure except the chosen one is being "attacked". I guess I'm failing to see the difference between this and Violet, except that one uses "choose" and one's a hot cartoon girl with a barbed wire arm.

[froembum]

We're pretty much all agreeing though that Violet and Gror do wound the Javelineer indirectly, as they have a target they attack, and other units aren't target but suffer indirectly.

I still don't understand this line of thinking. Neither Gror nor Violet mention "instead of..." so they are both performing a normal attack against multiple units. Violet hits up to 3 and Gror hits up to 12 but their ability just expands the number of spaces they can target with a normal attack while Fire Drake and Jacob are both performing a special attack, essentially.

I realize the line "instead of attacking normally" probably lumps everybody together and I can live with that. The reason I see a difference is the fact that FD and Jacob place a would marker intstead of rolling for hits/misses. This is mostly because in pokemon dealing damage and placing a damage marker are two different things.

Think about it this way...
If a unit had the ability stating it cannot be attacked by adjacent units, could Krung hit that unit after rolling 4+ for wild swing?

[Sera Eldwyn's boyfriend]

Of course Krung wouldn't hit, that is self-explanatory. Krung doesn't have any other special attack. Violet and Gror have special conditions to their attacks. Put it this way, if the unit Violet is attacking isn't a Javelineer, but the Javelineer is in the line of fire it should be affected. The reason I would think this is because the Javelineer isn't the target of the attack. The Javelineer's ability says that it can't be targeted by a ranged attack.

[killercactus]

Actually, what the Javelineer says is that it can't be attacked by a non-adjacent Unit.

The real issue is whether or not the Fire Drake is "attacking" every figure in the path of his Breath of Flame. Violet is attacking the furthest Unit away, and Gror is attacking a Unit next to him. Those are certain. Since the FD's (and Jacob's) attack is not a normal attack, it isn't quite as certain.

[Sera Eldwyn's boyfriend]

My mistake, but as for the FD and Jacob it doesn't say specifically it's an attack, it says place a wound on all targeted units.

[killercactus]

My mistake, but as for the FD and Jacob it doesn't say specifically it's an attack, it says place a wound on all targeted units.

It says "instead of a normal attack" though, which means it's still an attack, just not a normal one.

[froembum]

Krung, Gror, and Violet all use the exact same wording "...are affected by the attack." So if if Krung is so obvious in my hypothetical then Gror and Violet against Javelineers should be too.

For the purposes of avoiding future rule-mongering I think we shouldn't be splitting Gror, Violet, FD, and Jacob into two different categories regarding Javs. Either they all work or they all don't. My gut reaction after first seeing the card was that they all work because they aren't specifically targeting the Javs.

The idea of declaring an attempted Breath of Flame and/or Hammer Quake against non-Javs illegal because a Javelineer is standing in a certain spot is where I have the real problem. Although looking back I seem to be making that argument at times. My personal vote is treating the Jav ability as cannot be wounded by non-adjacent units during the attack phase.

Not perfect if you think about it as a goblin wearing camo ignoring the flames all around him, but I think it works in terms of game rules.

[Sauam]

I believe the bottom-bottom line is this:
someone (in plaid hat team) need to figure out and confirm how battle and it's wording works


- What are unit being affected by an attack would be consider of (ie: FD, Gror, Jacob). Are they just the attacking target or are they being attack as well, or both

- What consider as being targeted in an attack (ie: GK)

- If two card's ability both contradict one another, what takes prioritize, the cannot or the can (ie: Jav)

[Infection Reflection]

Krung, Gror, and Violet all use the exact same wording "...are affected by the attack." So if if Krung is so obvious in my hypothetical then Gror and Violet against Javelineers should be too.

I think he's right. The Javelineers ability says "...cannot be ATTACKED by a non-adjacent unit." It doesn't mention not being able to be AFFECTED by a non-adjacent attack. I think if the Javelineer is not the target, he would take damage.

[yoyomansizzle]

He's gonna be great against PE and Vanguard archer decks.

[hahma]

To me, you choose a figure to attack. That figure is the one that you need to know if it can be attacked in that manner. So if you can attack that figure, then depending on the attacking figure's power, other figures other than the chosen figure can be affected by the attack. Being affected and being attacked are two different things.

If the designers wanted a unit to not be affected by a non-adjacent attack, they should say, "XXX never takes wounds from units that are not adjacent to them." or something like that. Not taking wounds covers them not being affected as well as not being attacked.

Say you had a figure with invisibility and their power stated that they cannot be attacked by a non-adjacent figure. So now an archer would not be able to attack that invisible figure with his normal attack. However, he has an exploding arrow special attack and that attack can affect all figures adjacent to the targeted figure. If there is a figure adjacent to the invisible figure, the archer can target/attack the figure adjacent to the invisible one with an exploding arrow, and the invisible figure can be affected by that attack and take wounds. The archer couldn't see the figure to attack them normally, but that figure's invisibility isn't going to protect them from an explosion next to them.

[freezinpee]

I believe the bottom-bottom line is this:
someone (in plaid hat team) need to figure out and confirm how battle and it's wording works


- What are unit being affected by an attack would be consider of (ie: FD, Gror, Jacob). Are they just the attacking target or are they being attack as well, or both

- What consider as being targeted in an attack (ie: GK)

- If two card's ability both contradict one another, what takes prioritize, the cannot or the can (ie: Jav)

I completely agree with this post.

I'd like to make an apology to this thread. My simple little question at the start of this thread created a five page forest fire lol.
I myself can't wait for the official ruling. Whatever the outcome, I feel this unit is very effective, even if it is in the line of fire or a whirling blade or the shockwave of a earthquake.

In terms of targeting I agree that it can't happen. In terms of everything else I Hope we get an official rulling from Truth soon.

[Incognito]

Q: Can the Fire Drake use his Fire Breath on a Javelineer?
A: Same as Elien. The Drake has to be adjacent to the Javelineer to include it in the Fire Breath, since it is considered an attack.

Is this the official ruling? As I recall the discussion wasn't quite settled yet...

[Phoenixio]

Nope sorry. This was the original version I came up with when I made the Book. I'll take it out so it doesn't confuse people.

I'm still 99% certain it's the good way to interpret the wordings, since it respects all wordings correctly and is also in the same vein as the Guardian Knight issue with the Breath.

However, I'm still working on the case. And Colby's been pretty busy with other stuff too, so it takes some time to rectify it all.

[Kaemon Awa 123]

It says "instead of a normal attack" though, which means it's still an attack, just not a normal one.So... is Sera's healing an attack?

I think that he isn't affected, it never uses the word attack.



Now, another good question is: If a Javelineer would be affected by Gror's/Violet's attack, is the Javelineer exempted, or does it prevent the attack?

[Phoenixio]

So... is Sera's healing an attack?

No. It uses an attack, but since it doesn't use the terminology "instead of attacking normally", it isn't considered an attack.



Now, another good question is: If a Javelineer would be affected by Gror's/Violet's attack, is the Javelineer exempted, or does it prevent the attack?

In my interpretation of things, the Javelineer would receive the wounds from Gror/Violet. As long as he isn't the one directly targeted by the ability (the unit Gror is adjacent too when using his attack, or for Violet, any unit within 3 straight line spaces), he suffers the indirect damage. For those two, the case is pretty much solved.

The problem still arises with the Fire Drake and with Jacob Eldwyn, whose abilities are considered attacks. They don't have primary targets, so in that case, either the Javelineer is unaffected and others are, or the ability is simply impossible to use if it would affect a Javelineer so the abilities don't contradict each other.

[brightknight_216]

I was reading the thread on The Book of Javelineers and saw an interesting debate going on. However, I have a question on whether Krusk's ability can work Javelineers. It said that after your movement phase, you spend 2 magic points to choose up to 3 units that are within 3 spaces of Krusks and move these chosen units up to 1 space.

Let us assume for some reasons, the SG player decided to move the Jalelineers and on a result of a die roll of 4+ they receive one wound. Is this possible? :confused: I do not see this as an 'attack' just as an effect after moving the Javilineers.

[Phoenixio]

Let us assume for some reasons, the SG player decided to move the Jalelineers and on a result of a die roll of 4+ they receive one wound. Is this possible? :confused: I do not see this as an 'attack' just as an effect after moving the Javilineers.

You got it right: it's not an attack, but only a special ability. Even though it can deal damage, it's still not considered an attack. So the Javelineer would receive a wound if Krusk rolled a 4+ after moving the Javelineer.

[prometheuslkr]

The problem still arises with the Fire Drake and with Jacob Eldwyn, whose abilities are considered attacks.

Who sid that they are considered attacks? I'm pretty sure they're not considered attacks, they just take the place of one.

[Sera Eldwyn's boyfriend]

It's like Prometheuslkr said, Jacob's and the Fire Drakes abilities replace an attack so I don't think that the Javelineer could block it. It isn't necessarily an attack either because it's automatic wounds. To me an attack is rolling the dice on a targeted unit. You still roll dice for Jacob, but his ability seems more like a power than an attack.

[prometheuslkr]

Saying javelineers block Fire Breath seems to me a lot like saying Goblin Invincibility blocks Fire Blast.

[Infection Reflection]

Saying javelineers block Fire Breath seems to me a lot like saying Goblin Invincibility blocks Fire Blast.

No one could have put it better!:D

[Phoenixio]

Who sid that they are considered attacks? I'm pretty sure they're not considered attacks, they just take the place of one.

Colby. Fire Breath, Heaven's Rain and Fire Blast are considered attacks because they use the terminology "instead of attacking normally".

Other abilities simply use an attack without being one, and they use the simpler terminology "instead of attacking".

So no, it's totally not like Goblin Invincibility, which is overridden by the Fire Drake's Breath. GI interacts with dice rolls, whereas Camouflage interacts with attacks.

[prometheuslkr]

Okay. I just hadn't heard that before. I am still correct in assuming that javelineers can be affected if they are between the Drake and his target, they just can't be targeted, right?

[Phoenixio]

Okay. I just hadn't heard that before. I am still correct in assuming that javelineers can be affected if they are between the Drake and his target, they just can't be targeted, right?

The last 7 pages of this Book are about this very debate. We're actually waiting for Colby's take on this one, as people seem to prefer the flavorful solution of them being affected, even if it doesn't follow the wordings on the cards.

However, brute wording answer: since the Breath is an attack, the Javelineer should be adjacent for the Breath to include the Javelineer in. It's not "evident" collateral damage like for Gror and Violet.

[prometheuslkr]

What? based on the wording on the Fire Drake, it's just like Violet's special. You can't exclude the Fire drake but still include Violet.

[Phoenixio]

Violet's attack is a normal attack that happens to also affect everything between her and her target. One unit is the target, every other unit in between receives collateral damage without being part of the attack.

Fire Drake's ability as a whole is the attack. It is not worded the same at all, even though it has somewhat of a similar effect. And the wording on the Drake makes it so that the effect on Javelineer is not evident at all. Since the whole line is the attack, and not just the last card like for Violet, then the Javelineer's ability should pop in.

When getting deep into the rulings, one must be wary of interpretations vs wording. Interpretation wise, both abilities are the same, but they sure aren't wording wise, thus creating the issue we have at hand.

[froembum]

Violet's attack is a normal attack that happens to also affect everything between her and her target. One unit is the target, every other unit in between receives collateral damage without being part of the attack.

How can the Javelineers be affected by an attack if they can't be attacked?

I repeat what I said earlier. Splitting the Area of Effect units into 2 different groups, ones that hit Javs and ones that don't is just going to cause headaches down the road.

The two best choices to me would be:
A. Javelineers can be hit if they are not the target/chosen card but they are in the AoE

B. The AoE hits everyone except Javs

I never understood your original idea of declaring a Breath of Flame targeting a non-Jav illegal because of where a Javelineer is standing.

[Phoenixio]

I never understood your original idea of declaring a Breath of Flame targeting a non-Jav illegal because of where a Javelineer is standing.


Fire Breath: Instead of attacking normally... There is no doubt that Fire Breath is an attack.

Camouflage: This Javelineer cannot be attacked by non-adjacent units.

So, since Fire Breath is an attack, Javelineers can only be affected by Fire Breath if the Fire Drake is adjacent to them.

Now, if the Javelineer isn't adjacent to the Fire Drake, but you choose to use Fire Breath over a Javelineer to hit something behind it, there is a contradiction: the Javelineer is attacked (since Fire Breath is an attack with 1 chosen card to define length, and up to 3 targets) by a non-adjacent unit. This isn't possible. Camouflage clearly states that this CAN'T happen. It's not like the Javelineer won't be affected and the other units will: it's simply a situation that can't exist. There's a contradiction of rules.

Thus, Fire Breathing isn't allowed over a Javelineer that isn't adjacent to the Fire Drake. Pretty simple logic, and I only followed the wordings by the book.

[Sauam]

When getting deep into the rulings, one must be wary of interpretations vs wording. Interpretation wise, both abilities are the same, but they sure aren't wording wise, thus creating the issue we have at hand.

This part is very important and I agree, wording on card games is very important

In the same time, I feel the only weak point (serious not much at all btw) of SW is the wonkier wording. I understand it is so because the game is still rather new and wording is not yet unify, I really adore this game so I wish everything can hopefully be fix with as little issue as possible... but as of now, some wording is really puzzling, imagine for those not too savvy card player, I can see they'll just scratch their head :o

[Phoenixio]

I understand it is so because the game is still rather new and wording is not yet unify, I really adore this game so I wish everything can hopefully be fix with as little issue as possible... but as of now, some wording is really puzzling

The wording improved a lot in the Master Set. However, most of the issues concern older cards, like the ones in the Starter Sets.

I do however think that the problematic situations aren't very numerous, and some of them just don't happen that often anyway. In those cases, I guess people can house-rule those cases to their liking.

During playtest, a lot of these cases are found, and some others we simply rule out by ourselves. After a while though, we see that these cases weren't as obvious as we thought they were during playtest, and we get good discussions like this one. And well, there's a lot more people here, so situations evolve quite fast too!

[hahma]

Fire Breath: Instead of attacking normally... There is no doubt that Fire Breath is an attack.

Camouflage: This Javelineer cannot be attacked by non-adjacent units.

So, since Fire Breath is an attack, Javelineers can only be affected by Fire Breath if the Fire Drake is adjacent to them.

Now, if the Javelineer isn't adjacent to the Fire Drake, but you choose to use Fire Breath over a Javelineer to hit something behind it, there is a contradiction: the Javelineer is attacked (since Fire Breath is an attack with 1 chosen card to define length, and up to 3 targets) by a non-adjacent unit. This isn't possible. Camouflage clearly states that this CAN'T happen. It's not like the Javelineer won't be affected and the other units will: it's simply a situation that can't exist. There's a contradiction of rules.

Thus, Fire Breathing isn't allowed over a Javelineer that isn't adjacent to the Fire Drake. Pretty simple logic, and I only followed the wordings by the book.


So basically from that, based on the by the book wording, a Javelineer effectively can change the range of the Fire Drake in certain situations just by being not adjacent to the Fire Drake, yet being between the Fire Drake and any other card the player controlling the Javelineer controls.

[froembum]

I'm tired of the Fire Drake debate. I say the Drake hits the guy behind the Javelineer but the Jav takes no damage. You say the Javelineer prevents the guy behind him from being chosen. Whatever the official ruling is I'll live with it.

Here's a new point about Violet/Gror. The argument for Violet hitting a Javelineer 2 spaces away by targeting the unit behind him, 3 spaces away, is that the Jav isn't being attacked. He is just affected by the attack and therefore takes full damage. If this becomes the official ruling I would like to make a quick list of unit abilities and event effects that require being attacked to activate.

Baldar
Guardsman
Oldin
Tordok
Climber
Fencer
Thwarter
Cloak of Shadows
Goblin Invincibility

These are just the cards actually in print. There might be more in the previews but I didn't look since this seemed like enough to make my point. I Violet targeting the card behind them creates a loophole that gets around all these abilities then that seems like a big deal to me. I haven't played a lot with the Cloaks but if asked before the Javelineers got previewed if Violet could roll a 1 and 3 for her attack and deal 1 damage to Baldar or a Cave Goblin with Goblin Invincibility by targeting the unit behind them I would have said of course not. However if the Jav can be hit then they can too.

[killercactus]

I'm kinda with freoembum, but kinda not.

I would really just like to see "affected by the attack" = "attacked", which would clear everything up.

Javelineers would be sick against Gror with that wording though if Gror just could never attack if a Javelineer was within his blast radius and non-adjacent, but that's OK because Gror is too good anyway. Violet kinda gets screwed but not very badly at all - if she's adjacent to the Javelineer she can do whatever she wants - it's only when she's one space away and there's something she wants to get behind it that really matters.

It's not the most flavorful solution, but it feels like the most elegant to me.

[Elcor13]

I'm kinda with freoembum, but kinda not.

I would really just like to see "affected by the attack" = "attacked", which would clear everything up.

Javelineers would be sick against Gror with that wording though if Gror just could never attack if a Javelineer was within his blast radius and non-adjacent, but that's OK because Gror is too good anyway. Violet kinda gets screwed but not very badly at all - if she's adjacent to the Javelineer she can do whatever she wants - it's only when she's one space away and there's something she wants to get behind it that really matters.

It's not the most flavorful solution, but it feels like the most elegant to me.

I mean, at the same time, it would make Javelineers too good. The Sand Goblins really don't need help. They are a strong faction that has one of the best champions in the game and one of the stronger Summoner powers too. Making Jav's invincible against AOE attacks doesn't really like strike me as the direction the card should go, nor does it really fit with the theme of the card. If it had something like Colleen's power but only for itself, then it would make sense. But not camo. Camo shouldn't stop people from being shot, just from being seen.

[hahma]

I agree that Violet could attack through a Javelineer and hit the card behind it without affecting the Javelineer due to Camoflage. I mean just because the Javelineer can't be attacked by a non-adjacent unit, why should that stop the card behind them from getting attacked by Violet?

[Phoenixio]

My whole take on SW is that units have abilities, but there are ways to circumvent them. That's why I enjoy seeing collateral damage wounding units like Javelineers.

I'll check out more in detail the thing about multiple units being able to avoid it. And honestly, I really wouldn't mind if other units were bypassed by Violet or such similar abilities. It's not like it happens that often anyway.

I'll get back on it later.

[Sauam]

I would really just like to see "affected by the attack" = "attacked", which would clear everything up.

or make it into =/=

then it will solve lots of problem, the whole issue here now really is so far there still no word on what does being "attacked" really means, in the same context so is the word "targeted"

in a way this is driving me insane, coming from a pure card player myself, I see this as a huge Achilles heel of SW. The game is freaking great of course but thing like this drive player bonkers and scare non-savvy player away.... just yesterday I was teaching a friend of mine and he was already confused on some of the easier confusion which to us is easy but to them they find it too complex, so I cannot even imagine if I have to explain this ordeal to him

I say, with no disrespect, please start to design card with unify wording in mind, do not introduce new word that has the same meaning as older word unless you must... if SW's theme and flavor can be this beautifully unify, why cant it be the same with all those unit's wording? At the end of the day, even sometime you might make certain card too powerful, I say just go ahead and make if official what that said card can or cannot do and get it over with, then start working future card with that card in mind so that said card will never be broken... it will be better then not deciding then when situation forces you to decide, it'll be too late and whatever the outcome on both end will be unacceptable because things are then written on the stone and cannot change back

[ArcticSnake]

Maybe if they changed the wording to something like "Cannot be targeted but can be wounded by non-adjacent units"

(Like with Bragg - the online card wording is different from the actual card.)

[Infection Reflection]

(Like with Bragg - the online card wording is different from the actual card.)

Really? Wow! I'd never noticed! Learn something new every day!:cool:

[prometheuslkr]

Happens other places too: Ret-Talus' starting set-up is different online and on-card; Scagg has a mis-spelling that occurs online but not on-card

[killercactus]

Those are just little things that need cleaned up, though.

For the most part, the wording is very uniform. The FAQ should be able to clear up any of these issues like this that don't come into play very often.

[Setharillius]

I would say there is a difference between "attacked" and "affected by an attack". Violet's card says she can shoot through units (first off), and THEN says all units in between her and her target card are affected by the attack. Even if a Javelineer can't be attacked, he can still be shot through (whether he is "affected by the attack", I don't know)
Were her card to say: "Violet may shoot through units that she can attack, all units between her and her target are affected by the attack" Then that would be different.

[Klaxas]

any word on this yet?

[Sauam]

I wish to know as well but I guess we still have a good weeks before we get the master set in the mail box

This Jav issue would happen quite often in many games, from the look things, there is FB in PE deck which are 99% included, than there is Gror, also 99%... finally there Jacob and the likes of Violet, which also quite likely will shows up

So thats 4 faction or more already that can mess up the flow and gets people in heated debates in the middle of the game... play nice guys, dont flip any table or throws dice at your opp's face now :p

[Phoenixio]

The matter reached Truth, I can assure you. We haven't had a definitive solution yet, but I guess he or the Lead Playtester are going to post about it when it's ready. For some reason, I think it might be just after the Master Set comes out, when the rush will calm down and the issue will be more important.

[Sauam]

The matter reached Truth, I can assure you. We haven't had a definitive solution yet, but I guess he or the Lead Playtester are going to post about it when it's ready. For some reason, I think it might be just after the Master Set comes out, when the rush will calm down and the issue will be more important.

Thanks dude. Sunglasses for you guys :cool::cool::cool:

[Phoenixio]

So it was a lingering question on everyone's lips, and it got finally answered in the latest FAQ (told you it would be around now :D)

Q:Can an ability that affects a large zone (like Quake Hammer, Fire Breath, etc) be triggered if a Javelineer (or a unit with Camouflage) is within that zone?
A: Yes. All units but the Javelineers (or units with Camouflage) will be affected by the attack. The Javelineers (or units with Camouflage) simply won't receive any damage, as if they weren't there.

If there are still problems, let us know. After much deliberation, this simple solution was chosen over a more complex one. I'm sad the complex one is gone (because it made perfect sense), but it definitely wasn't very accessible. This one is more intuitive too.

At least my nightmares will finally come to an end!

[Sauam]

... this simple solution was chosen over a more complex one. I'm sad the complex one is gone (because it made perfect sense), but it definitely wasn't very accessible. This one is more intuitive too....

I am glad it took the simple and intuitive solution rather than a complex one :D

[Infection Reflection]

I am glad it took the simple and intuitive solution rather then a complex one :D

Ditto!
Ten character limit...

[flamejuggler]

Hard to see how a guy with camo isn't effected by a sea of flames or a quake, but I suppose rules have to trump flavor sometimes. If those Attacks couldn't even have been declared because a javalineer was in range, I think that would be hard to swallow, so this seems a decent compromise. But not really intuitive. I think the javalineer should be hit by AOEs that don't require targeting it specifically...oh well.

[Tisroero]

I don't want weak commons any more than you do, mayne.

[Sauam]

Hard to see how a guy with camo isn't effected by a sea of flames or a quake...

Actually if you look closer you can kinda see Javelineer is holding a form of Camo-shield

It is sort of what the native uses back in the days, it's a hard shield that are fill with surrounding objects such as leafs and rocks, then they hides under it like a hermit crab. The shield are hard and camo to the surrounding

So ya... It can surely protect from some puny 1 damage fire breathing ;)

[iglew]

I've only just now skimmed through this monster thread. I see that eventually an official ruling was made and it's now in the FAQ, but it is stated in general terms. To clarify, I'd like to spell out each individual unit. (Someone please confirm that I've got these all correct.)

1. Other units "affected" by attack: Gror, Violet
Logic: Per FAQ, any time a unit is affected by an attack, it is considered to be attacked.
Conclusion: The camouflaged unit is immune if it is not adjacent, but its presence in the area of effect does not prevent the attack from being made against others.

2. "Instead of attacking normally": Fire Drake, Jungle Guard, Prince Elien
Logic: Per FAQ, when a unit has an ability labeled this way, it counts as an attack.
Conclusion: The camouflaged unit is immune if it is not adjacent, but its presence in the area of effect does not prevent the attack from being made against others.

3. "Instead of attacking": Grognack, Jacob Eldwyn, Sin-Sin
Logic: Per FAQ, when a unit has an ability labeled this way, it is not an attack.
Conclusion: The camouflaged unit is not immune from this effect.

4. Other: Controller, Hawk, Krusk, Kynder, Lun, Tacullu
Logic: Although these units have powers that seem sort of like attacks, the wording does not define them as attacks in any way.
Conclusion: The camouflaged unit is not immune from this effect.

Is that correct?

(Note: The FAQ says Breath of Flame and Fire Blast are the only two "instead of attacking normally" abilities, but that is incorrect: Heaven's Rain is also worded that way.) [EDIT: Jacob does not say that, but Jungle Guard does.]

[joepinion]

I've just read all this thanks to iglew's post. Thanks iglew, that's really well-done and helpful.

In my opinion the chosen solution is the easiest to understand for new/non-gamers, so I am happy about it. As Sauam mentioned, some people are already confused by the simpler disputes that we see as obvious, and I think those people would agree with the official ruling.

The two principles:

1) Each targeted unit deals with the effects of an attack without regarding the other units who are affected.

2) The only way to circumvent a defensive ability that specifically works against "attacks" is if the word attack is not involved (so a normal attack, or "instead of attacking normally" or "affected by the attack" are all treated as attacks, while "instead of attacking" or "add a wound" circumvent the ability). Meanwhile, you have abilities such as the Scavengers, whose powers can't be circumvented at all--err, except in the case of Assassinate, Feed the Eater, etc. Sheesh!! :D

[Phoenixio]

Is that correct?


Yeah, it's perfect. Very nice post by the way.

I think I'll put it in the Javelineer's and Krusk's Community Contributions part of the first post.

[iglew]

I just noticed that JE's Jungle Guard also has the "instead of attacking normally" wording in its text, so it too belongs in category 2 above.

[Phoenixio]

The Jungle Guards don't have the "Instead of attacking normally" in their ability, but they do make it clear that their power is complementary to a normal attack. It's more like a buffed normal attack with special targets than an ability considered like an attack.

But they would indeed be a case 2 from your other post.

[Barliman]

There is a discrepancy here.

The wording on the Jungle Guard card as published does indeed say "Instead of attacking normally", and Iglew says. The wording online on the JE Faction page does not say that, just as Phoenixio says.

This does not affect how Jungle Guards interact with Javelineers, but it makes me worried about other possible discrepancies.

[Phoenixio]

I should have double checked the printed card. My bad. Luckily, it doesn't change anything.

I'll admit I'm not using the Jungle Guards very often either...

[iglew]

This does not affect how Jungle Guards interact with Javelineers, but it makes me worried about other possible discrepancies.

Several of the JE cards are reworded. I've got a list somewhere. I'll try to remember to post it separately tonight.

The two meaningful ones I remember are Oldin, whose Stone Melding doesn't work against his own units, and Chant of Negation, which was discussed in Abua's book. I think the rest just rearrange the wording for better clarity or fix typos/misspellings.

[iglew]

Aaargh! I'm looking at my list of card discrepancies now, and I see Jacob Eldwyn is one of them. This one does make a difference to Camouflage. Jacob should be in group 3 above, not group 2.

I'm going to post my list in the other thread now.

[iglew]

I just edited my post above to reflect the correct wordings for Jacob Eldwyn and Jungle Guard. No one was going to misinterpret Jungle Guard, but for Jacob it makes a functional difference (ie, camouflaged units are damaged by Heaven's Rain).

Phoenixio, if you could make the same edit to the Books for Javelineers and Krusk, I'd appreciate it.

[glenn3e]

Aren't Javelineers extremely cost efficient for what they do? They are a 1 Attack 2 Wound Ranged Attack Unit with a powerful ability. I don't see any other 1 costed unit having such powerful stats...... On the other hand, why build scavengers when Javelineers do better in almost every way?

[Sauam]

Aren't Javelineers extremely cost efficient for what they do? They are a 1 Attack 2 Wound Ranged Attack Unit with a powerful ability. I don't see any other 1 costed unit having such powerful stats...... On the other hand, why build scavengers when Javelineers do better in almost every way?

Javie is indeed very very good. There is no other ways to defend that lol... but that's like saying GD's Defender is extremely good at what they do as well (or Gem mage for a closer comparison)... Every faction gets their "trump card" I guess ;)

[glenn3e]

Javie is indeed very very good. There is no other ways to defend that lol... but that's like saying GD's Defender is extremely good at what they do as well (or Gem mage for a closer comparison)... Every faction gets their "trump card" I guess ;)

Looking at the Sand Goblins, I realize that their Shaman is extremely effective too. 2/1 for 1 cost ranged unit.

[Sauam]

Looking at the Sand Goblins, I realize that their Shaman is extremely effective too. 2/1 for 1 cost ranged unit.

Shaman is actually one of those "looks amazing on paper, yet not so great once played"

Their 2 av is great and all but their weak 1 lv would not last them more than a turn. In return, slowing the SG down drastically if these Shaman are toss out aimlessly... Shaman is very good no doubt, but summon with care or you'll neglect SG's main goal... Getting their superior Champion and/or Krusk into enemies' face.

However if you were wondering why SG is so cost effective, that's because the Sand Goblin is in the goblin family, their unit being inexpensive is their theme, like their Cave Goblin counterpart.

[darkbladecb]

Shaman is actually one of those "looks amazing on paper, yet not so great once played"

This seems a little harsh. You're not quite this harsh in your explanation, but Shamans are still quite effective on the whole, particularly when used in conjunction with someone like Silts in the late game.

[Clarissimus]

3. "Instead of attacking": Grognack, Sin-Sin, Jacob Eldwyn
Logic: Per FAQ, when a unit has an ability labeled this way, it is not an attack.
Conclusion: The camouflaged unit is not immune from this effect.

Jacob Eldwyn's card, if I am not mistaken, says "Instead of attacking normally." Therefore he should belong to category 2.

[thenightsshadow]

The real card says Instead of attacking. Just gonna quadruple check.

Edit: Yes, it doesn't have the word "normally" in the wording.

[airdroppers]

Didn't they change the text on the new Fire Drake and Elien cards?

Do Javs still avoid their range attacks?

[killercactus]

Didn't they change the text on the new Fire Drake and Elien cards?

Do Javs still avoid their range attacks?

Nope. Go PE.

[airdroppers]

So... Phoenix Elves just got stronger... :mad:

[thenightsshadow]

Yeah, Javs no longer block Elien and Fire Drake's abilities.