How to Beat Someone Who Just Uses There Champs

[Marroking1]

I have been playing Summoner Wars for about 3 months now and I have seen alot of diffrent playing styles. But there is one way that I absolutly HATE! This style is Dumping your hole hand into your magic pile and get there champs out in like the 5th turn. Now I play differently with every faction and have specific combos with them. But when players play the Dumping Game I can't complete these combos.
I am looking for ways to beat this stlye (If it even is style) of game play. Without playing the dumping game. I have tried many things like once they start getting them out I start summoning commons to over whelm them.
The only Faction that I have succesess with against this way is the CG. Since all there event Cards invlole hordes.

[KCU Master 2007]

Well, that strategy is a viable one. There really is no "easy" way to beat it. If you know that is their strategy you need to force them to either slow down and bring commons out by putting constant pressure on them. The other approach is to let them deck themselves and focus on making their Champions a wasted effort.

With the PE save your Burns and GBs to wipe out at least one champion quickly. TO can freeze champs and force your opponent to slow down long enough to keep their champs going. GD have heroic feat and spearmen...use them to get at least one or more attacks of four each. Like you said, you already know how to make it work with CG.

The FK and VG struggle with this as they don't have many heavy hitters other than their champions. The CK have proactive ways to prevent your opponent from dumping their hand such as spy and steal. The JE almost need to rely on dumping because of the high cost of their champs and commons.

[Jexik]

Crowd and/or destroy their walls. The natural counter to someone who has no board presence is to increase yours to the point that they have nowhere useful to summon.

Or, you return in kind by building magic and wait until they get bored and/or you have enough magic to have a push that makes it so they can't summon anywhere useful (going back to the crowding idea once you can do it with your own champions).

Champion based play is good. It's one of the reasons I don't like the FK- they aren't good at combating it.

[Phoenixio]

For the FK, using Skeletal Archers is a good way to get attacks and deny magic to your opponent. By putting enough pressure with a horde of commons, they can also rush their champions into sub-optimal plays too. Reapers can be good punchbags too if you're stuck on the defensive.

Otherwise, against some factions, attacking their walls is a good idea too. Since they won't play much units, any unit can tear down walls given time. And that makes them rush their summoning before the walls are down.

The idea against pure champ is to not rush into their territory without a perfect plan accounting for the worse. Otherwise it's just giving them more magic. Take your time, tear down walls, and prepare yourself. Force your opponent to come at you.

[dkartzinel]

Play Goblins. No, seriously. Poke their champions to death with your free commons and events, then as their deck gets low, summon your own champions. Take advantage of the extra attacks and board crowding to really knock them out.

PS
This advice does depend on which faction you are playing against. I'm also assuming you are playing against someone who really is just doing the champion thing, not building for a champion at a critical time.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

Sorry for the OT, but

Champion based play is good. It's one of the reasons I don't like the FK- they aren't good at combating it.I feel the problem with FK is really bad draws and the high risk of their champions going down in 1 turn, without being able to get a heal in, their champions are good at pounding champions in general, but they do lack extra firepower like Burns or Heroic Feats.

[Clarissimus]

Crowd and/or destroy their walls.

This. If they can't use walls they can't get those champs out.

[Quintaton16]

Champion based play is good. It's one of the reasons I don't like the FK- they aren't good at combating it.

What about Phantoms? I think anyone would think twice about Summoning champs against a 10-Phantom deck. Sure, it would lose to anyone who summoned a Common every now and then, but if so, you solved your problem.

The problem I see with Champion-only play is it ignores the matchup aspect of Summoner Wars. Most Units are good at attacking either Commons (like Gror or Guardians) or Champions (like Baldar or Shamans). Playing a style based on Champions isn't really hurt by this, but an all-Champion strategy can get burned, bad. Just try Summoning all Shamans or Phantoms or Thwarters until your opponent wises up.

[Sera Eldwyn's boyfriend]

I play games with Marroking1 a lot, and we don't like to proxy units that haven't been released yet. My belief in conquering the Champion attack is to swarm them with commons. It will force your opponent to bring out commons of their own to counter your charge, to me it's as simple as that.

[Elcor13]

It kind of depends on who you are. I'm going to assume that you don't want to also dump and get out your champs, so here are so kind of general strategies that will at least give you a general idea of what to do.

If you're the Cave Goblins: Use Goblin Horde Attack and Goblin Rage to kill their champ in like one turn with your 0 costers. Really use your event cards.

If you're the Guild Dwarves: If they're not pressuring you, really focus on destroying their walls with engineers and spearmen, backed up by defenders who protect your commons.

If you're the Phoenix Elves: Wait until they've summoned, then use Spirit of the Phoenix and Burns to take out their champs. Hit and run on their walls otherwise with archers and warriors.

If you're the Tundra Orcs: Pray you get lucky? Just play like normal I'd say. Kill your own units, then use Reinforcements and Walls to surround their champs and kill them. Or use fighters or something to get pressure on their summoner.

If you're the FK: Don't go for the quick fix (Like Forced Summon) because most likely your champs can't really go champ vs champ against say like Gror or Krung. Make good use of Dark Sacrifices to heal your champs, and just try to outlast your opponent.

If you're the Vanguard: Get out Kalon and destroy all opponents, with a priest or Guardian Knight giving support to Sera as she heals Kalon. Or try getting a priest and HJ combo going to either focus on their walls or to get a big early hit on their champ.

If you're the Cloaks: If he's going after champs use Gunners and Thieves to make them wish they had more champs out since their summoner is now getting attacked and they can't do anything about it.

If you're the Jungle elves: Get your champs out first or use Lioneers to force them to spend magic on commons defending their summoner.

Of course these are all general strategies and don't really deal with any specific things.

I think the best thing I can say is to try to get them out of their strategy. Try not to set yourself up for things like Magic Drain or reinforcements, and have a counter for when they bring out their champs. Also, like Jexik said, try crowding their walls some. Getting pressure on your opponents side of the board is the best way to really break whatever plan they have.

[Sauam]

Best way to combat imo is, once they dump, you dump yours as well. It is pointless to hold on to your hand if you know their Champ is coming next turn, as all your common is rather no match in the long run

Dump yours as well and likly you'll get a Champ of your own next turn to combat his. Even if you dont get Champ, giving him the mind game that you likely have one in hand will make him think twice to carelessly drop his Champ as first attack is very important when it comes to Champ vs Champ

[Sera Eldwyn's boyfriend]

I disagree, the commons can hold their own against most champions. The champion vs champion scenario would only work with certain decks. Say it was Kalon vs Reeker or even Krung vs Maelaena. If you have the weaker champion like Reeker or Maelaena your doomed, it just doesn't always work.

[Sauam]

I disagree, the commons can hold their own against most champions. The champion vs champion scenario would only work with certain decks. Say it was Kalon vs Reeker or even Krung vs Maelaena. If you have the weaker champion like Reeker or Maelaena your doomed, it just doesn't always work.

Using common to combat Champion is usually a bad move because you are basically giving them 3-4 magic for their one Champion. It'll take a long time to take down a mid sized Champion and even longer for a large one. If you just throw your common at their Champ, you are just losing board position and precious magic/card to summon those common

Also your example is not a fair one, you are comparing a mid size (4-5 cost) champion to a large size (7-8 cost)

Of course a Reeker cannot take down a Kalon, but with the extra 3 magic for summoning Reeker, I can also bring out 3 more Rider and with the help of those rider, I can walk out of the battle likely only losing Reeker, so at the end I lose Reeker or maybe plus a Rider but you just lost a Kalon

Anyways, the most logical way to combat a Champ is with another Champ of yours, this is especially true if they summon their then you summon yours for a first attack, hence why I said when it comes to Champ vs Champ, whoever lay the first hit has an advantage

[Elcor13]

I think the OP wants a strategy that doesn't use a lot of champions though, so while dumping a lot of champions is a good strategy and can work against your opponent, I think OP is looking for other ways of doing it :)

[sitnam90]

Ofcourse your giving up some magic using commons. But 3-4 magic worth of commons to take out a large 7-8 magic champ is a great payback. Most mid sized champions don't deal well with crowds, and those with AOE abilities are very expensive most of the time and they are designed to be anti-common. Those guys need events or combos to kill, but that's because their supposed to be tough for their cost. Using champions to fight champions doesn't work with every faction either, as some champions are simply better at fighting champs. The CG actually play better versus most champs using 0-pointers. PE has SoTP and burns, which are more effective IMO then their champs to get rid of enemy champs. Some factions do need champs for the heavy champs, like GD. But most small/mid champs aren't exactly crowd killers and can be somewhat fragile.

[Marroking1]

Thanks for the help guys. I decided to try the wall clogging tactic as the CG. I don't know why I did'nt think of that. Not only did I win against this person but I won in 2 turns. Played 13 games yesterday with CG and won everyone with this tactic.

When the Phantoms come out I am getting a extra FK deck and putting 10x
Phantoms in it. Keep it for those days when I have to battle someone who only uses champions.

For all those who play heroscape they know that common squads beat out heroes. When I started to play SW I thought it would be the same. It's not. Champions kick commons butts. And summoning more commons to reataliate against a Champ only allows them to get there other champs out faster. And keep some strong commons in there hands to use when I am all out.

Champion>Common

Now there are someways that this is wrong. Like with the JE. There commons are very good. And in the Reinforcement Packs even better. High life Commons do stand somewhat of a chance against champs. They will at least be able to get 2 attacks against a hero with 2 attack. Another that proves that motto is that players that dump to get there champs out fast will win if you are not used to this tactic. Like I was.

[darkbladecb]

Ofcourse your giving up some magic using commons. But 3-4 magic worth of commons to take out a large 7-8 magic champ is a great payback. Most mid sized champions don't deal well with crowds, and those with AOE abilities are very expensive most of the time and they are designed to be anti-common.

If you're playing 3 1-cost Commons, that's actually 6 magic, if you factor in the magic you lose for not building it. Whereas a 7-cost Champion simply costs 8. So 4 1-cost Commons is equivalent to a 7-cost Champion. So it's not as efficient 1-to-1 as you might think initially.

I do agree, however, that the genuinely best counter to someone who just plays a lot of Champions is to just play CG. They thrive on reactionary 1 hit KOs.

[Sauam]

Ofcourse your giving up some magic using commons. But 3-4 magic worth of commons to take out a large 7-8 magic champ is a great payback.

How can that be a great payback...:confused:

He spend 7-8 magic for a Champ
You spend 3-4 magic and 3-4 common cards (and this is best case on a 1 cost'er)
Then you spend 3-4 moves + attacks to close in
Then he gets back 3-4 magic for killing your commons and you get 1 magic for his Champ

I see the net profit on his sides is 2-3 magic, plus around 5-6 moves and attack during his turn meanwhile you're busy crowding his Champ using up all your moves and attacks per round... No matter how you see it, I still stand by that using common to combat Champ is a rather bad move...

[Elcor13]

I see the net profit on his sides is 2-3 magic, plus around 5-6 moves and attack during his turn meanwhile you're busy crowding his Champ using up all your moves and attacks per round... No matter how you see it, I still stand by that using common to combat Champ is a rather bad move...

You're forgetting that your opponent just wasted 6-8 magic on a champion who was only around for one or two turns though. I'm not advocating using just commons, I think you need a mix of both, but using a using commons to take out one champion is not a bad strategy, at least in theory and if you get it to work right. Nothing like using 0-costers and event cards to take out an 8 cost champ on one turn :D


Thanks for the help guys. I decided to try the wall clogging tactic as the CG. I don't know why I did'nt think of that. Not only did I win against this person but I won in 2 turns. Played 13 games yesterday with CG and won everyone with this tactic.

Oh god we've created a monster! Heh, next someone will be on here and be like "How do I beat the Cave Goblins when all they do is crowd my walls and kill my champs on like one turn?"



Now there are someways that this is wrong. Like with the JE. There commons are very good. And in the Reinforcement Packs even better. High life Commons do stand somewhat of a chance against champs. They will at least be able to get 2 attacks against a hero with 2 attack. Another that proves that motto is that players that dump to get there champs out fast will win if you are not used to this tactic. Like I was.

With the standard, their commons die too quickly for you to use a lot of them. Without a catchup event you get no benefit from having less units (they're one of the few factions that doesn't obviously have something that makes up for a lack of catchups, like 0 cost commons.) It makes sense to play more champions both to avoid being CUE'd and honestly because their champions are awesome since you can use almost any event card on them. Not that playing commons can't work, but they kind of spearhead the Meta game (which will probably have to change its name when the Master Set comes out lol.)

[dkartzinel]

You may be correct about the net profit on his side, but the player we are talking about who is only building to champions can only do that three times. That's only a maximum cost of 12 commons. That still leaves you with commons to spare, and he's out of champions and playing in a strategy that is not his best.

And that depends on the race you are playing too, Dwarf commons can heroic feat a champion, Goblins can gang up on him, Elves can spirit of the phoenix, etc. So then it may only take you one turn, especially if you plan for it.

I do have to say, I think some of this will come down to luck of the draw and what race you are playing, if he starts turn 1 with the phoenix elves dragon, you're probably pretty screwed, but that's just a lucky draw. I also think the Vanguards and Fallen Kingdom will in general have more trouble countering this strategy with commons (although supercharging a reaper on your own units and champion hunting might work, but that could cost you a lot of magic).

Another strategy that might work: ignore his champion. Send your commons along the other side of the board and go for his Summoner. Keep your summoner away from his one champion.

[sitnam90]

From my own personnel gaming experience, that simply is not true. Champions without common support (with exceptions for Champs specifically built to kill hordes) cannopt deal well by being attacked with by multiple units, which is a viable tactic becasuse if the opponent is building every to just play champs then they won't have any commons to support (as OP stated). 5-6 cost champs (About the average, run of the mill champion) don't normally have AOE abilities and tend to be about 4-6 life. And they can only attack once per turn. So that's 1 possible dead common per turn. I don't see how that translates into them killing 3-4 commons when they mostly kill one a turn, whereas three 2-attack commons (Guardians) could finish a five lifer within those same two turns.

Commons don't work all the time, especially with the death machine, 7-8 cost champs. But a cheap champ + commons can beat those type of guys, and having multiple units allows you to manuver more forces against the summoner.

[RoloCookie]

I have to say, I've heard several people say that Vanguard and Fallen Kingdoms have trouble countering this stategy and personally I disagree.

When playing fallen kingdoms I know that my lack of damage output is a problem, so I always play to get my champions out. It's not too difficult to get any of them out with forced summon, and elut bal can bring his 4 attacks to the table for free if you waste some expendable commons. Then, don't forget that you can actually heal your champions using dark sacrifice. I'd definitely aim to fight fire with fire here, I think you'll get your champs out faster, and you can keep them there with healing.

With vanguards you'll have a bit more difficulty, because they cost so much and only kalon packs more than 2 attacks (and even then only when he's below 50%). Try to use your gaurdian knights to protect your more valuable commons, with only one or two cards on the table at a time you should be able to buy yourself some time. Best case scenario you'll get Kalon out, but Archangel would do in a pinch. Then you can keep him up with healing from sara and your priests. Try to position your champion directly in front of sara; that way you can protect her, and heal your champion. Once again, you're playing the long game here.

One more thing to add that goes for ALL factions: don't forget that whoever you're playing, your summoner him/herself is always one of your strongest units, when the fight comes to your half of the field, its often possible to get them involved without putting them in too much danger. It should absolutely be possible to take down a champion or two in your own territory. There's a lot to be said for Grognack here, who shouldn't be too shy to get involved, and the goblins have Sneeks, who's almost as dangerous and can get himself out of harm's way to boot.

Anyway, hope that these ideas are helpful, best of luck.


- Just as an added after thought, don't forget that vanguard have holy judgement too, if you get one or two of those down and have a couple of priests on the table you'll take down champs in no time.

[Sauam]

Sitnam: My example of 3-4 dead common is for 7-8 Champ as I mentioned. For mid size Champ, it is usually 1-2 dead common only

As for Guardians, they are 2 cost common. So for each Guardians you loses, they gain a 3 card advantage, 4 if you count the magic they just acquired from it). So in reality, if a mid sized Champ (4-5 cost) take down just 2 Guardians, which they will, they already made their Champ worth while plus more... and a large size Krung type would likely take down several Guardians making it even worse of a trade

Of course, this is all just paper talk, everything needs to be evaluate and take into account for. Generally speaking, common vs champ is not ideal like I claimed. There is exception like CG and such... the only reason why we pit common against a champ is mostly because we had no other choice, if chance permits, often or not you would pit your own champ for that first strike for that big chuck of damage and walk out with your champ standing

[Sauam]

wait a minute, sitnam did you mean PE's warrior?

[KCU Master 2007]

You're mistaken somewhere. PE Guardians are 2 cost with 1 attack, Guardian Knights are 1 cost with 1 attack, PE Warriors are 1 cost with 2 attack. Who were you talking about?

[sitnam90]

Sitnam: My example of 3-4 dead common is for 7-8 Champ as I mentioned. For mid size Champ, it is usually 1-2 dead common only

Of course, this is all just paper talk, everything needs to be evaluate and take into account for. Generally speaking, common vs champ is not ideal like I claimed. There is exception like CG and such... the only reason why we pit common against a champ is mostly because we had no other choice, if chance permits, often or not you would pit your own champ for that first strike for that big chuck of damage and walk out with your champ standing
I meant warrior, my bad. I agree that champ vs common isn't ideal...but only in the case of guys like Krung or Gror becsause those guys are meant to slaughter commons with their AOE attack. But Most of the lower level champs don't deal well with multiple attackers; 3 warriors have enough attacks between them to kill a mid size champ in one to two turns, where due to the inherit game mechanics the champ can only use all its attacks on one common per turn. It all depends on who gets first attack, but if the commons do then they may lose one guy in return for killing the champ which is a great trade off. Guys like guardian knights and defenders can likely survive the attacks by a mid champ due to their higher health, whilst warriors/lionesses/spearman/other 2 attack one cost commons can kill the champ quickly. Again, this all depends on who attacks first, but mid and low level champs aren't automatic killers against the attacks of multiple commons.

I do agree that the monster champs with AOE are very capable of killing commons quite easily. But most champs aren't death machines so this idea that commons aren't ideal for champ killing is very situational and simplistic. Plus this discussion doesn't take into account that every faction is different. Events play a huge part in the game, and for some factions they are awesome for champ killing (Priests with holy judgement, fire beasts/warrior with SoTP). Champ>common is to broad of an idea in a game with multiple unique factions with countless variables. Death machine champ>commons is true though

[killercactus]

The thing about playing mono-champion though is that you aren't just dealing with the champion(s) - you're dealing with the champion(s) plus the starting commons. And if it's a Reinforcements faction, you're dealing with the champion(s) plus the starting commons plus the reinforced commons.

[Sera Eldwyn's boyfriend]

You can only play two units with a reinforcement card, and that's assuming you're opponent has more units than you do. If Champions are the three man army that many claim it is than it would be your opponent not you playing the reinforcement card if possible. The starting set up would definitely pose a problem, but you don't have to kill them. But if you decide to, take out as many as they take out of yours.

[I LIKE TAU!]

Use your own champions. I have had Kalon destroy Elut and Skhull when he has Sera's healing. I can't even say I got astounding luck; he didn't get as lucky but he didn't do too bad with the dice.

[Sera Eldwyn's boyfriend]

That's because Kalon, to me, is the best champion in the game.Then add Sera to the mix and he is almost indestructible.

[Elcor13]

That's because Kalon, to me, is the best champion in the game.Then add Sera to the mix and he is almost indestructible.

Kalon, with Sera supporting him, is certainly one of the best champs in the game. A lot of that has to do with Sera though ;-) Although I wouldn't say best.

Miti Mumway, with Chant of Growth, Chant of Life, and Chant of Haste (not to mention Chant of Deception if you really want to) is better :D He can move further, attack just as much, be healed, AND has a better power. Got Miti!

[I LIKE TAU!]

I suppose your right. Kalon seemed a tad expensive but he is really very good when I look at him closer.

[Marroking1]

Kalon, with Sera supporting him, is certainly one of the best champs in the game. A lot of that has to do with Sera though ;-) Although I wouldn't say best.

Miti Mumway, with Chant of Growth, Chant of Life, and Chant of Haste (not to mention Chant of Deception if you really want to) is better :D He can move further, attack just as much, be healed, AND has a better power. Got Miti!
Grungpr with 2 Heroic Feats on him is pretty darn good two. Same thing with Gror. Or the Fire Drake with SotP.