Someone needs to explain to me WHY this is the rule.

[Robyn Hode]

From the FAQ:

Q: What happens when a Precise unit attacks a Tundra Orc Smasher?
A: First trigger Precise. Count the number of dice that would be rolled. Put that number of Wound Markers on the Smasher. Next, trigger the Smasher’s ability. Since there are no dice being rolled, Sluggish does nothing!

I don't understand why the application of Precise would result in the non-application of Sluggish.

The reason listed says since there are no dice being rolled, but this is true even without the application of Precise. No dice are EVER rolled versus a unit with the Sluggish ability. I understand the FAQ is trying to say the resolution of Precise empties the dice pool, but nothing in the rules or on the cards say this is the rule. I hate to sound like a rules lawyer, but the FAQ essentially created a rule which is NOT in the game.

[elitebeatkrav]

Sluggish more or less grants precise to ALL units when attacking a smasher. Thus, the REAL precise grants no bonuses.

[Robyn Hode]

Sluggish more or less grants precise to ALL units when attacking a smasher. Thus, the REAL precise grants no bonuses.

I disagree. As written, the Sluggish unit should take 2 damage per die when attacked by a unit with Precise. Nothing in the rules says the dice pool empties when either Precise or Sluggish is resolved. So when the phasing player opts to resolve both abilities, which trigger at exactly the same time, both abilities should be resolved.

[killercactus]

First off, who cares? The Smasher takes the wounds.

Secondly, the reason it's worded that way in the FAQ is because Sluggish requires dice to be rolled to take effect, and Precise units don't roll dice.

[Robyn Hode]

First off, who cares? The Smasher takes the wounds.

Secondly, the reason it's worded that way in the FAQ is because Sluggish requires dice to be rolled to take effect, and Precise units don't roll dice.


Since both abilities are triggered at the same time, the phasing player could then opt to resolve Sluggish before Precise, no? Since the Precise ability has yet to resolve, Sluggish would resolve normally and the unit would take 1 damage per die. Then the Precise ability would resolve and the unit would take 1 damage per die.

[KCU Master 2007]

No. You're logic is way off. The Guardian has an attack value of 1 and will always inflict that wound unless an ability of some kind preventsthe wound.

Smashers will always take all possible wounds.

The two abilities do not interfere in anyway, if anything Smashers reduce the value of guardians by making their ability worthless.

Don't try to over think the way these rules and cards are written and we won't have debates like this...use some common sense when playing this game.

[Robyn Hode]

No. You're logic is way off. The Guardian has an attack value of 1 and will always inflict that wound unless an ability of some kind preventsthe wound.

Smashers will always take all possible wounds.

The two abilities do not interfere in anyway, if anything Smashers reduce the value of guardians by making their ability worthless.

Don't try to over think the way these rules and cards are written and we won't have debates like this...use some common sense when playing this game.


Common sense would suggest you apply the ability of a card when it resolves, no?

[killercactus]

Sluggish says to count the number of dice that would be rolled. Precise prevents the rolling of dice, therefore Sluggish doesn't do anything, and even if it did, it wouldn't matter - the Sluggish unit would only receive wounds equal to the Precise unit's attack value. There is no "double damage".

[KCU Master 2007]

Common sense would suggest you apply the ability of a card when it resolves, no?

Your common sense is flawed, no where is a second attack die ever implied. If your view really was common, wouldn't there be more people agreeing with you rather than people telling you are wrong.

The way the abilities interact have been explained multiple times for you in multiple ways. Your interpretation is WRONG, so please stop trying to convince us otherwise.

The FAQ is written by the designer of the game, I'm pretty sure he's right...

[Quintaton16]

An ability cannot be used if it's condition is not met. Obviously, neither Sluggish nor Precise does anything if the Smasher is not being attacked.

When a Guardian attacks a Smasher, both abilities trigger at the same time, so by the rules the Guardian's controller chooses the order in which they activate. It makes no difference which one goes first, because they are identical. Let's say Precise is first.

Precise: When attacking with this Guardian, instead of rolling the dice, count the number of dice that would be rolled. Place that number of wound markers on the Unit that is being attacked.

So, instead of resolving the combat, you just put one Wound on the Smasher.

Now, resolve the Smasher's ability.

Sluggish: when the Smasher is attacked, instead of rolling dice...

Wait a minute. You already rolled dice (or neglected to). You can't roll dice more than once in the same attack. Therefore, the trigger for Sluggish no longer applies.

[Robyn Hode]

Your common sense is flawed, no where is a second attack die ever implied. If your view really was common, wouldn't there be more people agreeing with you other than people telling you are wrong.

The way the abilities interact have been explain multiple times for you in multiple ways. Your interpretation is WRONG, so please stop trying to convince us otherwise.

The FAQ is written by the designer of the game, in pretty sure he's right...

No one said anything about a second attack die. Learn to read.

Let's say a PE Guardian attacks a TO Smasher:

Precise and Sluggish are triggered at the exact same time. Correct?
According to the rules, the active player can opt to resolve the abilities in any order.

Let's say the active player, in this case the PE player, opts to resolve Sluggish before Precise:
Sluggish is resolved.
Upon resolution the Smasher receives 1 wound token because the Guardian would roll 1 die. (Since Precise has NOT resolved, the Sluggish ability is resolved as if the Guardian would roll 1 die.)
Precise is resolved.
Upon resolution the Smasher receives 1 wound token because the Guardian would normally roll 1 die.

If the active player opted to resolve the abilities in the other order, then the Smasher would receive 1 wound token.

I understand the designer wrote the FAQ, but as written, the rulebook does NOT support the FAQ.

[KCU Master 2007]

I think it's ironic that you're telling me to read...

Anyway, allow me to ellaborate. The way you interpreting the series of events is allowing either a second roll of the die, therefore a second attack die.

For the third time, you are WRONG do us all a favor and drop it. The rule can't be explained any easier than it already has been. Sluggish does not have any effect on Guardian's percise ability (other than essentially making it useless). There is one possible wound when a Guardian attacks, there for a Smasher takes one wound. End of attack move on with your life.

I don't see why you're still arguing your point, so please just let it go.



- These are the times that I REALLY miss negrep...

[Robyn Hode]

An ability cannot be used if it's condition is not met. Obviously, neither Sluggish nor Precise does anything if the Smasher is not being attacked.

When a Guardian attacks a Smasher, both abilities trigger at the same time, so by the rules the Guardian's controller chooses the order in which they activate. It makes no difference which one goes first, because they are identical. Let's say Precise is first.

Precise: When attacking with this Guardian, instead of rolling the dice, count the number of dice that would be rolled. Place that number of wound markers on the Unit that is being attacked.

So, instead of resolving the combat, you just put one Wound on the Smasher.

Now, resolve the Smasher's ability.

Sluggish: when the Smasher is attacked, instead of rolling dice...

Wait a minute. You already rolled dice (or neglected to). You can't roll dice more than once in the same attack. Therefore, the trigger for Sluggish no longer applies.

Please show me in the rulebook where it says you can ignore an ability which was activated. Nothing in the rulebook supports this rule.

[Marroking1]

Please show me in the rulebook where it says you can ignore an ability which was activated. Nothing in the rulebook supports this rule.
You can choose to not use an ability.The only abilities you can't ignore is if it increases your dice. Like choosing not to use Archangel flight.

[Robyn Hode]

You can choose to not use an ability.The only abilities you can't ignore is if it increases your dice. Like choosing not to use Archangel flight.


I'll ignore for a second NONE of what you posted is in the rulebook, and instead simply point out that the FAQ disagrees with you:

From the FAQ

Q: Can I choose not to use a Unit’s Special Ability?
A: Typically Special Abilities are not optional, with the exception of Special Abilities that take the place of an attack. Special Abilities that take the place of a standard attack are always optional, as are Special Abilities that use the term “may”, as in, “you may move up to two additional spaces”

[Jexik]

It's my understanding that Sluggish and Precise were designed to be redundant, not cumulative, much in the way that Unwieldy Magic and Shield Block are, and so that's why it was ruled in that way.

[Lord_AndraK]

Look I understand were your comming from, me been a MTG and D&D player (and other games that require a PHD in reading rulebooks).
just accept that this is NOT magic and the rules have to be taken with a grain of salt. They are to be followed as intended and at the end of the day that's what PHG rules it. (think of it like the Oracle to clarrify rules, so you rewrite it if you must to give the best legal wording to result in the intended play)

"And on that bomb shell" think of Sluggish giving Precise to any unit whom attacks this smasher (rewording required).

[Robyn Hode]

Look I understand were your comming from, me been a MTG and D&D player (and other games that require a PHD in reading rulebooks).
just accept that this is NOT magic and the rules have to be taken with a grain of salt. They are to be followed as intended and at the end of the day that's what PHG rules it. (think of it like the Oracle to clarrify rules, so you rewrite it if you must to give the best legal wording to result in the intended play)

"And on that bomb shell" think of Sluggish giving Precise to any unit whom attacks this smasher (rewording required).

I understand. It would be nice though if the FAQ reflected rules which are actually in the game. At the very least, if they're going to have an updated FAQ, then they should have a Living Rulebook. The rulebook says the ability of a card takes precedence over the normal rules of the game. The FAQ basically rules otherwise. I love the game, but the rules need a lot of work in my opinion.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

No one said anything about a second attack die. Learn to read.Woah, slow down dude. That was way out of line and doesn't contribute at all with the discussion.
Btw, you are being a rules lawyer simply by adhering by the rules as written and ignoring the intent of the rule. If you want to argue more holes go check GInvincibility and Shamans.
The Living Rulebook is a good suggestion, but not a necessity IMO because of the type of game SW is. It´s more like an alternative to an updated FAQ. If you want to make suggestions to make the game better, usually a more friendly attitude gets better results. My 2 cents.

[killercactus]

Both abilities replace dice that would be rolled. Once one of them activates, the other is useless because there are no dice that would be rolled. The order in which they activate doesn't matter.

EDIT: I decided to just spell this out in an attempt to end the debate. Here's how the PE Guardian vs. TO Smasher attack should resolve, step by step:

1} Guardian attacks Smasher
2} Precise and Sluggish resolve simultaneously
3} PE player chooses to resolve Sluggish first
4} Sluggish resolves:
4a} PE player determines how many dice would be rolled for the attack: 1
4b} Instead of rolling dice, the Smasher receives 1 wound.
5} Precise resolves:
5a} PE player determines how many dice would be rolled for the attack: 0 [because Sluggish prevented it]
5b} Instead of rolling dice, the Smasher receives 0 wounds.

Net result = The Smasher receives 1 wound.

Note that this would be exactly the same if Precise was chosen to resolve first.

[Robyn Hode]

Both abilities replace dice that would be rolled. Once one of them activates, the other is useless because there are no dice that would be rolled. The order in which they activate doesn't matter.

EDIT: I decided to just spell this out in an attempt to end the debate. Here's how the PE Guardian vs. TO Smasher attack should resolve, step by step:

1} Guardian attacks Smasher
2} Precise and Sluggish resolve simultaneously
3} PE player chooses to resolve Sluggish first
4} Sluggish resolves:
4a} PE player determines how many dice would be rolled for the attack: 1
4b} Instead of rolling dice, the Smasher receives 1 wound.
5} Precise resolves:
5a} PE player determines how many dice would be rolled for the attack: 0 [because Sluggish prevented it]
5b} Instead of rolling dice, the Smasher receives 0 wounds.

Net result = The Smasher receives 1 wound.

Note that this would be exactly the same if Precise was chosen to resolve first.

Once again... I understand this is how the FAQ has ruled on the interaction, but my point is the FAQ is NOT supported by the rulebook. NOTHING in the rulebook discusses dice pools and special abilities. I've asked several times for someone to supply me with a page in the rulebook which supports the FAQ. Sorry to be a rules lawyer, but a game with so many varied interactions needs to be written with more clarity and organization.

[elitebeatkrav]

Go play D&D. :p

[KCU Master 2007]

Once again... I understand this is how the FAQ has ruled on the interaction, but my point is the FAQ is NOT supported by the rulebook. NOTHING in the rulebook discusses dice pools and special abilities. I've asked several times for someone to supply me with a page in the rulebook which supports the FAQ. Sorry to be a rules lawyer, but a game with so many varied interactions needs to be written with more clarity and organization.

The Rulebook is the basic set of rules. The FAQ elaborates or adds too the rulebook. This is done rather than printing a new edition of the rule book when new abilities are introduced.

You are being a rules lawyer when you don't need to be. Follow what the FAQ says and drop it.

[killercactus]

Once again... I understand this is how the FAQ has ruled on the interaction, but my point is the FAQ is NOT supported by the rulebook. NOTHING in the rulebook discusses dice pools and special abilities. I've asked several times for someone to supply me with a page in the rulebook which supports the FAQ. Sorry to be a rules lawyer, but a game with so many varied interactions needs to be written with more clarity and organization.

I don't have a rulebook in front of me, so I can't quote anything from it. However, I thought the whole point of the FAQ was to address those things that the rulebook doesn't clarify...?

Can you tell me what in the rulebook refutes my post? The only thing I can think of is that the rulebook is silent on what happens when abilities resolve at the same time, though the FAQ points out that the player whose turn it currently is gets to choose.

My point is that I don't think you need a rulebook for this. All you need is to read the cards, do what they say, and know that 2 abilities that trigger simultaneously happen in the order of the player whose turn it is. I don't know of anything in the rulebook that contradicts this....

[Kaiser Cat]

Actually, I always thought that if you wanted to take the Help-Me-I-Don't-Know-How-To-Read-Into-The-Rules-And-CanOnly-Do-Exactly-What-They-Say-With=No-Common-Sense route, it would make the Smashers immune to anyone with Precise.

-Guardian attacks. No dice are rolled, according to Sluggish. No wounds are placed.
-Sluggish triggers. See above.

And add my name to the list of people who would like to say that it happens like this.

-G-Dawg attacks. No dice are rolled, and precise puts a wound onto the smasher.
-Sluggish activates, but the guardian did not roll dice. No additional wounds are placed.

[leon]

In my opinion, both Precise and Sluggish are written in a unintuitive way and should be rewritten in a Reckless-like fashion:

Precise: When attacking with [this unit], all die results count as hits.
Sluggish: When this Smasher is attacked, all die results count as hits.

I think these wordings are simpler to understand, and they interact with each other without need of clarification. Of course, this Precise wording conflicts with other abilities such as Oldin's, Guardsmen's, Climbers, etc. so a general rule should be introduced (such as, "In case of conflict about whether a die result is a hit or not, active player decides"). Actually, this is matter of time I guess, due sooner or later a unit that hits on 2+ will came up.

[tatoolo]

Here are the abilities verbatim:

Precise - When attacking with this Guardian, instead of rolling the dice, count the number of dice that would be rolled. Place that number of Wound Markers on the Unit that is being attacked.

Sluggish - When this Smasher is attacked, instead of rolling the dice, count the number of dice that would be rolled. Place that number of Wound Markers on this Smasher.

I will concede that both abilities are triggered at the same time, when an attack is declared.

the FAQ states:

Q: What happens if 2 powers trigger at the same time, like “at the end of your Attack Phase”?
A: The player whose turn it is determines in which order the Special Abilities will be resolved.

Therefore the active player chooses the order to resolve these two abilities, despite the fact that they were both triggered at the same time, by the same event. In either case, the ability eliminates the rolling of dice for the attack. Despite the fact that the attack itself is what triggered both abilities, the triggering event changes after the first ability is used on it. Think of it like this:

An attack is declared, in which one die is to be rolled. Precise and Sluggish are added to the event pile. The active player chooses to resolve one.

That ability takes as input the attack that triggered it. It reduces the number of dice in that attack to zero, and adds that many wounds to the Smasher.

Next, the other ability resolves. It takes as input the attack that triggered it. However, the event that triggered it has changed from its original state since it actually triggered the ability. The ability reduces the number of dice in the attack to zero (from zero), and adds that many wounds to the Smasher.

Now both abilities have resolved, and the attack is finished.

The triggering event is a dynamic input to the abilities, not a static input, much in the same way that there is an event stack in Magic the Gathering; one spell can affect the result of a previously triggered action, by changing the trigger itself.

[killercactus]

In my opinion, both Precise and Sluggish are written in a unintuitive way and should be rewritten in a Reckless-like fashion:

Precise: When attacking with [this unit], all die results count as hits.
Sluggish: When this Smasher is attacked, all die results count as hits.

I think these wordings are simpler to understand, and they interact with each other without need of clarification. Of course, this Precise wording conflicts with other abilities such as Oldin's, Guardsmen's, Climbers, etc. so a general rule should be introduced (such as, "In case of conflict about whether a die result is a hit or not, active player decides"). Actually, this is matter of time I guess, due sooner or later a unit that hits on 2+ will came up.

But what if more units are going to come out with abilities that are based on how many dice the attacker rolls?

Consider this hypothetical ability:

Counterattack
When [new unit] is attacked by an adjacent unit, count the number of dice rolled for that attack. [new unit] may immediately attack that adjacent unit with that many dice.

With the way Precise is currently worded, Counterattack would never trigger against a Precise unit, because it doesn't roll any dice. With your suggested change, it would. I'm just saying that we don't know what new cards are in store, and maybe this wording is deliberate.

[jschild]

In my opinion, both Precise and Sluggish are written in a unintuitive way and should be rewritten in a Reckless-like fashion:

Precise: When attacking with [this unit], all die results count as hits.
Sluggish: When this Smasher is attacked, all die results count as hits.

I think these wordings are simpler to understand, and they interact with each other without need of clarification. Of course, this Precise wording conflicts with other abilities such as Oldin's, Guardsmen's, Climbers, etc. so a general rule should be introduced (such as, "In case of conflict about whether a die result is a hit or not, active player decides"). Actually, this is matter of time I guess, due sooner or later a unit that hits on 2+ will came up.

Also, if it was worded that way, Goblin Invincibility could prevent wounds from a Guardian if they did not roll a 6.

This is very simple and I don't see how anyone can actually read this to get 2 wounds instead of one. Sluggish gives everyone, whether than already have it or not, the precise ability, for all intents and purposes.

[Quintaton16]

Once again... I understand this is how the FAQ has ruled on the interaction, but my point is the FAQ is NOT supported by the rulebook. NOTHING in the rulebook discusses dice pools and special abilities. I've asked several times for someone to supply me with a page in the rulebook which supports the FAQ. Sorry to be a rules lawyer, but a game with so many varied interactions needs to be written with more clarity and organization.

You're right. We shouldn't have to do things that the rulebook doesn't tell us to do. Take this rule from page 8-9 of the rulebook.

"You can only attack a card that is within a straight line from the attacking Unit either Vertically or Horizontally."

That rule is too ambiguous. There are so may terms there that it just doesn't define. 'Vertical?' 'Horizontal?' 'Line?' The rulebook never defines these terms anywhere!


I find it kind of funny that without the FAQ, this question is actually less ambiguous. Nowhere in the rulebook does it say that special abilities which would resolve at the same time are resolved sequentially in an order determined by the active player. I find it kind of funny that you are using a rule which is in the FAQ but not the rulebook to attack another rule which is in the FAQ but not the rulebook.

In fact, by far the most relevant line in the rulebook (not the FAQ) is on page 12, paragraph 3.

Some Event Cards give Units a temporary Special Ability.... multiple special abilities of the same name do not stack with one another.

I realize that from one point to the other requires a small leap of common sense, but I think we are capable of handling it. It is perfectly obvious to me that a rulebook cannot and should not attempt to deal with every possible situation. To do so would rob the rulebook of it's most attractive feature: the fact that it is seventeen pages long.

You called for a 'living rulebook' as a possible solution. That would imply regular reissues of the rulebook at additional expense to both Colby and all of us. If that is impossible, what is the alternative? Something like, oh, I don't know, an FAQ run by the designer and updated regularly. What's the difference? How about that it's online, like any living rulebook would be, by necessity.

And if it's any consolation, Colby has hinted at a 'tournament rulebook' in the future which will alleviate all need for common sense.

[Robyn Hode]

Go play D&D. :p


Thanks for the helpful comment mate.

[Robyn Hode]

A tournament rulebook would be awesome. I enjoy the game a good deal and have introduced it to a dozen or so people in the last week alone, so please don't think I am a troll. I just wanted a simple explanation. I think the game would benefit very much from a 'stack' mechanism of some kind, to provide an intuitive resolution system. Otherwise the FAQ is going to be pages and pages of card interactions.

The rules currently don't differentiate between activated abilities and abilities which are always in effect on the battlefield. I assume Defender's 'Engage' ability is the latter, otherwise the reason applied to Precise/Sluggish could be used to ignore the Engage ability versus any unit with a movement special ability.

[jschild]

A tournament rulebook would be awesome. I enjoy the game a good deal and have introduced it to a dozen or so people in the last week alone, so please don't think I am a troll. I just wanted a simple explanation. I think the game would benefit very much from a 'stack' mechanism of some kind, to provide an intuitive resolution system. Otherwise the FAQ is going to be pages and pages of card interactions.

The rules currently don't differentiate between activated abilities and abilities which are always in effect on the battlefield. I assume Defender's 'Engage' ability is the latter, otherwise the reason applied to Precise/Sluggish could be used to ignore the Engage ability versus any unit with a movement special ability.

In the case of the Defender's Engage, you simply do what the card says. Do what the card tells you, not what it doesn't say.

[Jexik]

In my opinion, both Precise and Sluggish are written in a unintuitive way and should be rewritten in a Reckless-like fashion:

Precise: When attacking with [this unit], all die results count as hits.
Sluggish: When this Smasher is attacked, all die results count as hits.

I think these wordings are simpler to understand, and they interact with each other without need of clarification. Of course, this Precise wording conflicts with other abilities such as Oldin's, Guardsmen's, Climbers, etc. so a general rule should be introduced (such as, "In case of conflict about whether a die result is a hit or not, active player decides"). Actually, this is matter of time I guess, due sooner or later a unit that hits on 2+ will came up.

And that's why. If a Slinger attacks a Smasher with your wording you get conflicting results.

However, if you only changed the Guardian/precise, that might actually work, now that we clarified that HIT results don't always cause wounds. That would probably be a severe nerf to the already weak Guardians though. (It would mean that they'd still have to roll v. Oldin and tough stuff, and would still need the higher numbers).

The idea behind Sluggish and Precise is just to take the roll for the attack out altogether, which is why you don't do it twice when they combine. You've already not rolled once.

[pixlepix]

Another way of looking at it:

Both abilities count the number of dice that would be rolled. This would take into consideration any abilities, such as the opposite ability, as it affects the number of dice that would be rolled(reducing it to 0). So:

1Guardian attacks
2Precise is activated
3Precise activates sluggish
4Sluggish does 1 wound and reduces the dice to 0
5You count 0 dice for precise, and Sluggish reduced the # of dice to 0
6You do an extra 0 damage.

ofc, if you have to look at thing this closely to understand common sense, something is clearly wrong.

[Lord_AndraK]

sorry but 0 is still a numerical value you should have it as null, other wise some of us might attempt to roll 0 dice.
The wording is clear don't roll any dice which is the qualitative to a dice value of null. (it doesn't say these words exactly I am aware)

any way this thread should die now, the person in question whom started this debate has already declared their intent to leave the Forums.



I Baldar shall officially slay this thread!

DIE Fiend!
*epic fight sequence with Baldar (me) leaping upon a great wyrm (the thread)*
"(add verbal abuse and taunts here)"
RARRRGH!
*Baldar dodges as the gush of burning leters erupts from the wyrms mouth, he swings his axe with a Heroic Feat ... and lands a mighty 4 wounds upon the Beast*
"(add more Dwarvish comments)"
*The wyrm rises up to its full height, preparing to crush Baldar under its enermously bloated weight. As an a final act of desperation Baldar throws his axe at the now exposed neck of the monster*
Woogh woogh woogh *as the axe rotates in the air...*
Wump! *with a sickening thud the blade buries it self into the Wyrm*

"It is finished. Let us naught speek of thas agin"

[rym]

This seemed like as good a place as any to ask this, since this thread particularly deals with the Precise ability.

So my question: How do Goblin Invincibility and Precise work together?

The way my friend and I interpreted it was that Precise negates Goblin Invincibility. I do not know the exact wording as I don't have the cards in front of me, but Precise states "count the number of dice that would be rolled...", to the effect that you're not actually rolling dice, and Goblin Invincibility states a Goblin Unit only takes wounds on a die roll of 6.

Logic tells me we played it correct, but I just wanted to make sure.

Thanks in advance guys.

[prometheuslkr]

The (invincibility) card says: "when an opponent rolls dice to attack," so I think you played this correctly as well.

[Jexik]

Yeah, Precise trumps GI. I often built it v. the PE.

[rym]

Thanks guys.

Like I said, I thought that was the way it should be played, and we were corect. :)