How to defeat turtling

[Dustin]

My friend started using a strategy of simply waiting out the enemy. He plays Vanguard and he hides his units all in back until the enemy has eventually run out of power. Then he sends his only champion out to kill the other summoner. Mind you, he only uses common units whereas I play all three of my champions with tons of mana to spare. I am normally not bothered by losing but this strategy is boring (drags the game out like an hour) and seems annoyingly consistent (like it could beat most decks/people).

Technically I never officially lost to this method because we had to end the game early (I probably would have lost), but I've seen him beat others this way. The question remains the same: how do you beat a turtle?

[mrkurtb]

One fun way is to destroy his shell. Position one of your powerful attackers next to your opponent's wall. Then protect its (your big baddy's) exposed sides with some fodder. (NOTE: sometimes its easier if your fodder wraps around your opponent's wall in order to deny open summoning spaces.) Next destroy his walls. Either the turtle comes out of his shell or he gets destroyed.

The Vanguards can be especially vulnerable to this strategy because of their relatively weak counter-attack abilities.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

Well, no idea since this just doesn't work in my book. Having the Vanguards at a nice 1-15 record doesn't make me a reliable source either :P. Vanguards start with the most units (except for the goblins) so you can play Magic Drain and Reinforcement on them from the beginning if you want to press forward.
Some ideas:
With the Elves drop commons, get the dragon ASAP, and start spitting at her summoner from a distance. If he is waiting bring Elien as support, he just can kill anything at a distance (at this point you should have a Spirit or Burn in hand for emergencies. He will have to move out and then you start picking his commons apart. When his champions get around just 1 hit kill them (greater burn and some Spirit for your big hitters) or also get Kayseeall for some fun.
With the Orcs... well, just hunt them. You can press on him no matter what, build fighters get Smashers to push forward and Shamans to hit at a distance. He won't be able to protect Sera from a constant onslaught.
It's really easy with the Dwarves to kill down their walls, but if he gets a champion out it won't matter much. If he is really holding back, try to get hold of Gror and a Heroic Feat and you can decimate his commons. He can't hold back from this really and he can't hide behind his walls.
Don't have any obvious advice with the Goblins, but Berserkers excel at this MU, even more supported by Mook. That's a lot of magic, but you can drop a lot of Slingers and Fighers you won't be using.
With the Undead you can heal your champion yourself and you don't run out of steam when you deck out, so turtling shouldn't be a problem.

Not sure if this is helpful since in my games if the Vanguards wait the other factions can place themselves in an advantageous situation for a big attack. So basically to your question, IMO you beat a turtle taking out of his comfort zone. FireDrake and Gror are great at this, making him choose between holding back or getting hit hard. Or building such an attack than waiting is just a death wish (Goblins and Orcs)

[Jexik]

http://www.plaidhatgames.com/sum_forums/showthread.php?t=438

;)

[darkbladecb]

It's true. I'd probably use the Guild Dwarves and starting Besieging those Walls. I'd get Engineers and Gror out and make him break his turtle as you pound on his walls. He'll have to move a couple things out eventually. And if he's not playing his Champs, you'll have your team out ready to go. Soon, you'll have Ballistas to help here, too, as they'll be able to crank out the 5 range attack with Tordok behind 'em, making it harder for his archers to retaliate.

[Kaiser Cat]

Summon The Eater. :o

Gror'll work nicely as well.

[Quintaton16]

If he's just waiting you out, why are you becoming depleted? Don't build Magic faster than you can use it (not by much anyway). There's no reason to deck yourself if you can't do anything with the Magic. Also, don't just trade single Wounds with your Commons, since he's guaranteed to have some Priests back there. If you attack, shoot to kill.

Yeah, and attack the Wall with something big. He'll come around pretty quickly.

[Jivatma]

Ranged units beat turtling. hands down. Every action has ranged units. and I promise You, vanguard cannot possibly have that many archers on the field. :P just shoot them froma range. g.burn the priests and burn the archers. freeze priests, etc etc. just stop him from recovering from your attacks.

[Dustin]

Thanks for the insight guys. Thinking back to my game, I think I rushed in with my champs too fast, handing out free food to him. And while Vanguards do lack in power in general, he was able to buff his priests to 3 attack which was huge.

However, I was able to keep my unit count low and drain him down most of the game. Looking back, if I started attacking walls like you suggested, he would be forced to come out. If I succeeded in breaking his walls, then his final champ would have been obsolete. I need to learn how to adjust my tactics mid-game to situations like this...then I can boost my ratio in our bracket.

[Kaiser Cat]

I still like my Idea. If your opponent is using expensive commons, or commons in a tight group, the Eater will work wonders.

(Otherwise, he'll be pretty subpar IMHO.)

[PePe QuiCoSE]

The problem with the Eater is that you have to draw him, no Hero is Born to help you there unlike Elves or Dwarves.

[Lord_AndraK]

ORCS NO LIKE TURTLE!

It stuffs up their default strategy "what strategy we just charge and keep charging!"

Any ideas on how the orcs should respond to turtling other than...
"HIT EM SO DAM HARD THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT'S WHAT!"

[Jivatma]

ORCS NO LIKE TURTLE!

It stuffs up their default strategy "what strategy we just charge and keep charging!"

Any ideas on how the orcs should respond to turtling other than...
"HIT EM SO DAM HARD THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT'S WHAT!"

Orcs should build magic and summon krung. I don't know many "turtle decks" that can beat a krung smashing them in the face.

[Lord_AndraK]

Id classify that as fitting under "HIT EM SO DAM HARD!" type strategy.

What i want to know is...Is there a strategy that the Orcs can use to defeat turtling that involves more than hitting them with the most powerful units until they break.

[Jivatma]

ping away with archers is best bet. 44% chance is bound to go in your favor eventually. That or try your luck with furying their line down. Its really hard to turtle against TO. TO have smashers and it already takes 2-3 attacks to take these down. reinforce 2 smashers and just waltz right in. it's really not considered turtling at that point.

[Lord_AndraK]

He, I guess that's that.
Orcs just smash turtle.

fury and smashers the foundation of the Orcs... "NO BRAIN, NO PAIN!"