Mercenary Strategies

[lildrummahboi34]

With the release of the recent Reinforcement Packs came quite a few more Mercenary units, giving us quite a selection of Mercenaries. Lately I have been getting much more interested in deck construction and have struggled to find proper places for Mercenaries. Does anybody have any solid combos with Mercenaries with any Faction? I am more than eager to try anything out.

[Thing 2]

See the following:

http://www.plaidhatgames.com/Deck_Cards.pdf

[sitnam90]

I have decks in the deckbuilding subforum that use mercs. The FK are pretty good with mercs. Malevolence is good as a heavy champ if you don't like Elut-bal. I also like using. Dragos and Khexhu healing combo. I also like using a Khan Queso and a small number of Vermin to deal with groups of commons. I also like using one owl with CG to help with hand and event management. The strategy section has article I wrote concerning mercs

[killercactus]

Each Merc and where/how I've used them or seen them used well:

Vermin - FK for cheap DS fodder, though I think Phantoms are better. Also seen them in JE and BD for combos with CoH and Tele blast.

Spear Grounders - GD, since Reinforce and HF are not faction specific. VG combos with Priests and Colleen. PE or BD to get some units with extra life and 2 attack.

Stonecloaks - SG for extra life and combo with Mirage. VG for combo with Priests and Colleen. Benders just for more life. TO and since they have so many walls.

Owls - VG to fuel summoning surge early, setup Priests + HJ, get walls quicker and get Leah out first. DD to fuel SS again and setup nasty WtFG combos. CG and FK to set up event combos, but I'd rather have more goblins or undead in each.

Malevolence - VG combo with Sera. FK combo with Dark Sac. CL to get a heavy hitter instead of Dagger. Personally I think all 3 factions have better champions for her role than Mal, but some disagree.

Khan Queso - JE and BD combo with CoH / Tele Blast. Any faction where you'd rather have a cheap champ and summon more commons.

Sairook - DD to use Shadow Summon, and then Meditate back up to 4 magic.

Khexhu - DD to combo with Meditate. FK to combo with Dark Sac and Forced Summon for free.

Magos - !!!!!!! I was just about to type that I didn't really have a good use for him, but I think DD would love him for their sick combos.

Grubs - TO, MV, or CG smashing face with Grognack, Sunderved, or Sneeks on the front lines. Any faction with a ranges summoner to shoot and then block off the summoner (especially Tacullu with Counter Summon. Elien would be nice too, but PE has a lot of good champs already and you cant SotP Grubs). VG for combo with Sera's greater healing.

Naan'Nashi - CL with Cloak of Shadows on a common that gets in deep (like a sneaking Gunner). CG or SE with big swarms that usually leaves you with cheap commons on your opponents side (CG also has GI to keep a common alive on opponents side). FK for free Forced Summon and discarded common can be Raised.

[lildrummahboi34]

Thanks a bunch everyone, these are all helpful resources. It is just what I was looking for.

[Setharillius]

Cool stuff, you motivated me to use Grubs in my JE deck.
I must admit, he's pretty awesome! Especially when paired with Miti Mumway.
Unfortunately for me, he was playing all champs, and I was the one who was playing the offense, so he ended up winning, but Grubs is definitely cool.

[prometheuslkr]

I've also used Magos in a FK deck because I like to save a Legion of the Dead for the late game as well as saving Forced Summon and Dark Sacrifice for opportune times, but I don't want all those events clogging up my card flow too much.

Can't wait till the Merc deck comes out. Hopefully there will be some ranged Merc commons, that could be valuable, especially in range-less factions like the MV.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

Magos works good on both the VG and FK, the problem is which champion to get out considering the new ones. Before he was their only access to a Ranged champion (Raechel didn't count).

[sitnam90]

Poor Rachel. Love her art, but with mercs and reinforcements there is never an excuse to use her

[esper88]

Hopefully there will be some ranged Merc commons, that could be valuable, especially in range-less factions like the MV.

I think that may be taboo; for the same reason I don't think we'll ever see a 0 cost merc. If you're playing against the Mountain Vargath and you have to plan accordingly for a newly summoned ranged common even though you usually wouldn't have to, something is lost. Same thing goes for looking at your opponent's magic pile and seeing zilch. You don't want to always have to worry about that 0 cost merc. Sometimes it's nice knowing that you're safe to take an otherwise risky move.

[prometheuslkr]

I think that may be taboo; for the same reason I don't think we'll ever see a 0 cost merc. If you're playing against the Mountain Vargath and you have to plan accordingly for a newly summoned ranged common even though you usually wouldn't have to, something is lost. Same thing goes for looking at your opponent's magic pile and seeing zilch. You don't want to always have to worry about that 0 cost merc. Sometimes it's nice knowing that you're safe to take an otherwise risky move.

The 0-cost merc maybe not, and we will almost definitely never get a 3-cost merc common. But the Range I could see. Rushers have about the same threat range from summoning if you're worried about an unexpected summon. And I suspect the MV will be getting range (Speakers probably) anyway.

[Sauam]

I think that may be taboo; for the same reason I don't think we'll ever see a 0 cost merc. If you're playing against the Mountain Vargath and you have to plan accordingly for a newly summoned ranged common even though you usually wouldn't have to, something is lost. Same thing goes for looking at your opponent's magic pile and seeing zilch. You don't want to always have to worry about that 0 cost merc. Sometimes it's nice knowing that you're safe to take an otherwise risky move.

I really hope this is the case. There should not be any 0 cost merc even it it has a huge draw back. Like you said, it's nice to know you are safe to take a risk.

Also the same with range merc, I really don't want to see one... but if there MUST need to have a range merc common, I hope is very expensive like JE's Jungle guard so you can still account for it by gauging enemy magic pile... besides, we already have a few range merc champ, so I don't see why we need any more but in common form.

[Phoenixio]

This talk about mercenaries not having 0 costers or ranged units through Reinforcement is just plain weird. I mean, ain't the deck-building all about surprises?

If the Mountain Vargath had to always be the same, I think Reinforcements would have failed. And seeing how this discussion goes, the Mountain Vargath themselves make some of you think there will never be any ranged mercenary or 0 costers. Imagine now if we take the other 15 factions into account: there'd be no mercenaries at all!

Heroic Feat, Vanguards healing, Reinforcements, Ice Walls, and so on, all those are pretty sick with some mercenary unit or another. Are some combo strong? Yes. Are those combo strictly better than their standard counterpart? I think not. And if you're not a huge fan of surprises, play standard builds. Those have been tested over and over again and guarantee some fun!

[Sauam]

There is a huge difference between being surprised because I forgot to account for your Holy Jugdements, then "Hmmm I magic drained you dry, knowing that you are playing JE and has no immediate threat, I can now safely park my Vlox next to your wall... then whamp comes a 0 cost merc out of no where and Vlox got owned"

It is totally not necessary for every faction to have that kind of surprise factor... this game is partially an out-think-your-opponent game, too much unpredictable'ness is not really that healthy for a game like this imho.

[sitnam90]

For one, I don't see how a 0-coster will be owning a summoner all by himself. But not only that, part of what mercenaries are about is creating that surprise and unpredictability and being able to cover a weakness the faction might have. But so far none of the mercs have been overly powerful. They are all useful: Vermin and KQ give a cheap AOE attack to factions like the FK and Cloaks, Malevolence can act as a heavy destroyer champ for factions that lack champs of that type, Stonecloaks give Benders some beefier commons and work well with Sand Goblin mirage. But none of these and none of the other mercenaries are overpowered. Unexpected? For sure. No one expects Benders to pull out a common with more then one life out. But it doesn't break the bank because the playtesters put their work in and made sure it would work well with all factions. If we get a ranged mercenary (very likely with two of the upcoming mercs being mages) and a 0-coster (Which i hope we do get, alongside a ranged merc), I have faith it won't be ridiculously overpowered or make the game too chaotic because the playtesters will have done their job correctly. Yeah it'll suck to be caught off guard by a unexpected ranged common for the MV (Who I think will get a ranged common anyways) or a 0-coster for the cost prohibitive Jungle Elves. But that is one of the advantages mercenaries have over core units is that unpredictability. As Phoenixio said, if unpredictability was an issue for just two factions then we shouldn't have them at all.

[iglew]

And if you're not a huge fan of surprises, play standard builds. Those have been tested over and over again and guarantee some fun!

You don't have to go that far. If your concern is that too much unpredictability diminishes the outthink-your-opponent aspect of the game (and I do agree with Sauam about that), then I would recommend you play with public decks. That is, use all the reinforcements and mercenaries you like, but at the start of every game each player knows exactly which champions and commons the opponent's deck contains.

I think the game plays much better this way. (Indeed, I was a little surprised when I gleaned from these forums that most people don't play that way.) For me, Summoner Wars is a better game if more of the strategy is shifted to the playing field, and away from MTG-like deck construction.

[Phoenixio]

I do indeed most of the time describe my build to my opponent, and inquire the same from him. I find it much more satisfying when the decklist are public knowledge and thus when skill is much more important during the game.

Trust me, with the upcoming mercenaries, it's getting pretty hardcore predicting anything when you play the "surprise mode".

[thenightsshadow]

I find that the whole public decklist thing is very useful when it comes to playing in tournament-like settings, but I'm a firm believer in using the no-decklist approach when aiming to learn your deck and/or an opponent's faction.

There are thing that you should train to do, like if you're the Phoenix Elves facing the Jungle Elves. Holding a Warrior to block a lane during a Chant of Negation to block any one of Jungle Guards, Miti Mumway/Elephants, or Lioneers, or defending a mid-board assault by the Deep Dwarves as the Guild Dwarves, learning to place Units and when to summon so as not to get blown out by Magic Stasis, Magic Torrent, Lun, Kynder, or any combination of them all.

Things like that are less learnable with public decklists at times.

[killercactus]

I'll never understand how it takes more skill to beat an opponent when you know what's coming than to beat one when you don't.

[sitnam90]

I'll never understand how it takes more skill to beat an opponent when you know what's coming than to beat one when you don't.

I support this. Not knowing what may be coming after you teaches a whole new aspect of risk management and situational awareness. I have nothing against showing your decks but I don't paticulary care for it in my games

[Phoenixio]

Well, it's more about if you know his deck, he knows yours too. So it's not about having THE surprise that your opponent had this whatever unit you weren't that much expecting.

To further illustrate the point, you must also admit that a faction doesn't have a single way to play. For example, the Guild Dwarves can go at Wall Destruction, at solo champions, at heavy lockdown, and so on. When playing against the Guild Dwarves in the "surprise mode", one must be wary of ALL those types of decks and prepare for all of them. Add in a couple (read ton) of potential mercenary units, and it's becoming quite impossible to plan for everything.

I don't have a good example at hand, because they are more situational, but it happens often that you plan according to a certain strategy (let's say you turtle) to avoid some trap your opponent might have if you're offensive. But it happens to be that your opponent also had this other tool to totally destroy turtles. So you're basically doomed and you have to take a chance in the strategy you adopt "in case" your opponent can't answer well. It's this luck factor I totally hate.

And if you try to play defensively (read react to your opponent), you might end up in a stalemate if your opponent tries to do the same, since both of you try not to let any opening, stick in your corner, and never summon anything to keep the surprise. And that's just boring.

What I totally enjoy from standard builds is that the decks are usually made with a couple of different tactics in mind. Taking the example of Guild Dwarves again, one might use all 3 strategies mentioned earlier and switch from one another during the game, and everybody can plan according to that because there are a finite amount of things to do.

With every faction having mercenaries (an a lot to come), their refinforcements and maybe more in the future, I'm pretty sure nobody here will ever be able to anticipate everything. With revealed decklists, the tools are fixed, and it's up to you to manage your resources correctly to deal with them all.

[Phoenixio]

I have nothing against showing your decks but I don't paticulary care for it in my games

You should try to care. I think it's an upper level of talent to be able to check the cards, calculate some average probabilities that your opponent has a specific card, and adapt to those. Counting cards is also important, especially for some events like Burn, Spirit of the Phoenix, Magic Drain and the such.

I've had some truly epic games with Colby and James when the both of us just stopped and crunched numbers. Each turn was much longer, but each movement, attack, card built had a HUGE influence on the game, because we were trying to figure out what the other was about to do and what he could draw. Those were INCREDIBLY satisfying games, even for the ones that lost.

[killercactus]

Well, it's more about if you know his deck, he knows yours too. So it's not about having THE surprise that your opponent had this whatever unit you weren't that much expecting.

To further illustrate the point, you must also admit that a faction doesn't have a single way to play. For example, the Guild Dwarves can go at Wall Destruction, at solo champions, at heavy lockdown, and so on. When playing against the Guild Dwarves in the "surprise mode", one must be wary of ALL those types of decks and prepare for all of them. Add in a couple (read ton) of potential mercenary units, and it's becoming quite impossible to plan for everything.

I don't have a good example at hand, because they are more situational, but it happens often that you plan according to a certain strategy (let's say you turtle) to avoid some trap your opponent might have if you're offensive. But it happens to be that your opponent also had this other tool to totally destroy turtles. So you're basically doomed and you have to take a chance in the strategy you adopt "in case" your opponent can't answer well. It's this luck factor I totally hate.

And if you try to play defensively (read react to your opponent), you might end up in a stalemate if your opponent tries to do the same, since both of you try not to let any opening, stick in your corner, and never summon anything to keep the surprise. And that's just boring.

What I totally enjoy from standard builds is that the decks are usually made with a couple of different tactics in mind. Taking the example of Guild Dwarves again, one might use all 3 strategies mentioned earlier and switch from one another during the game, and everybody can plan according to that because there are a finite amount of things to do.

With every faction having mercenaries (an a lot to come), their refinforcements and maybe more in the future, I'm pretty sure nobody here will ever be able to anticipate everything. With revealed decklists, the tools are fixed, and it's up to you to manage your resources correctly to deal with them all.

I hardly ever share my deck with my opponent, and I've had lots of those types of games. I still count cards - I just count total commons, events and champions. I think it's more fun to say "well, you have a common left in your hand, and I think it's a Scrapper based on what I've seen from your deck so far, but I'm gonna be careful in case it's a Gunner."

I still don't like the theme behind knowing. I get this picture in my head of Elien and Grognack having a parley before the battle, and Elien saying "Well, I only have 5 Warriors, 5 Guardians, and 4 Archers available to summon this battle, and the Fire Drake, Maelena and Kaeseeall. What do you have? Really? Wow, I'm glad you aren't gonna summon any Chargers or Bragg, that would've sucked."

[Ranior]

I also think the fact that there are only 6 mercs per deck, AND that you know when your opponent has a mercenary is plenty of help to planning. It's not like decks can do anything all that massively different or shocking anyhow.


Personally I prefer to keep the builds secret and work from there. Next I don't know but currently the mercenaries out there aren't all that game changing either. They have their uses, but almost always each faction can pull more tricky stuff with their base units.

Overall my games have been extremely satisfying, and thats been by keeping decks secret. I think its a different, and in my opinion, not better game when you know exactly what someone else is/can do. Not to mention certain champs I think lose any use if you know they are there. I mean what the heck is Rahlee or Raechel really useful for if your opponent plans for them and never lets your really utilize their ability?

[Phoenixio]

I mean what the heck is Rahlee or Raechel really useful for if your opponent plans for them and never lets your really utilize their ability?

I think that those units are good in a known decklist, since it's part of their effect: people are wary of greater flight and the such more when they know there is some.

In a surprise environment, they are already wary of everything. So those "lesser" champions lose even more since their effects are already used by the format. So it's clearly better, from a playtesting point of view, to test units in their full potential, just like their standard counterparts.

I guess you guys don't play the same way we do. Much more chickening out in our games, and in my opinion that ain't good at all for a fast paced game like SW. Maybe it's because of the latest reinforcements and mercs you'll end up seeing soon enough: they might change your vision of blind deckbuilding a lot.

[iglew]

I'll never understand how it takes more skill to beat an opponent when you know what's coming than to beat one when you don't.

What I said was that it is a more strategic game that way, not that it takes "more skill" per se. If you had to play Summoner Wars while balancing a book on your head, that would take more skill, but it wouldn't make it a better game.

As for "more strategic", you can see how chess is a more strategic game than rock-paper-scissors, right? It's a similar concept.

[sitnam90]

As for "more strategic", you can see how chess is a more strategic game than rock-paper-scissors, right? It's a similar concept.

A good part of military strategy revolves around keeping the size, strength, and make-up a secret from the opposing army. War is far more strategic then chess I believe;)

[iglew]

Not to mention certain champs I think lose any use if you know they are there. I mean what the heck is Rahlee or Raechel really useful for if your opponent plans for them and never lets your really utilize their ability?

Raechel's usefulness lies in making your opponent wary of leaving one-life commons forward on the battlefield and forcing him to be more careful of his hand management when he does have commons out.

Honestly, I think you have it exactly backward. Raechel is far more useful in a public-deck format. If your opponent knows you've committed a champion slot to her, he has to take the threat seriously, and once you've got sufficient magic in your pile (or SS ability) it will cramp his play. But in a blind format he's going to think it unlikely you've played Raechel and it won't be cost-effective for him to protect against the small risk.

The result is that playing Raechel in a blind-deck format means 19 times out of 20 she does nothing at all for you but then then 20th time you catch your opponent by surprise and force him to discard a crucial card. In other words, it's sort of like winning because Ragnor got a string of successful Fury rolls.

I suppose it's a question of what you like. Which do you think makes a SW game more fun: the spectacular surprise move that your opponent didn't think to defend against (and arguably shouldn't have), or the cautious dance of responding to threats and counter-threats. I prefer the latter, but I can see how a different sort of player might prefer the former.

[iglew]

War is far more strategic then chess I believe;)And considerably less fun to play....

[Clarissimus]

I get this picture in my head of Elien and Grognack having a parley before the battle, and Elien saying "Well, I only have 5 Warriors, 5 Guardians, and 4 Archers available to summon this battle, and the Fire Drake, Maelena and Kaeseeall. What do you have? Really? Wow, I'm glad you aren't gonna summon any Chargers or Bragg, that would've sucked."

I found this image particularly hilarious.

[sitnam90]

And considerably less fun to play....

Touche:). I was just trying to show that the 'strategic' argument can really run both ways. There is certainly an aspect of strategy when you know what your opponent has, what you have, and trying to balance the math. But there is also much to be garnered from keep the decks a secret; even when they are a secret it is often easy to measure what kind of strategy your opponent has been leaning towards and what they have been using to accomplish it.

[Sauam]

After all said and done, I do much favor an open deck list format, and I hope one day Colby and team would make it an official way to play SW. Sort of like Five for Fighting.

I dare say, most of the fun in SW is to know what your opponent has and plan according to them, and yet players can still hide information away from your opponent by either hide in their hand or hide in their magic pile... and with open format, a 0 cost Merc will not be that bad of an idea (I still wish not to have one though)

Having a close format promote turtle to the extreme and favor some faction so much more than other (ie: JE gain so much more in close format, I lost to my first tourney to a close format because my enemy was JE and I just have no clue what to expect, and lost because I cannot push without giving my enemy huge advantage)

+100 vote for open format please :)

[PePe QuiCoSE]

it's sort of like winning because Ragnor got a string of successful Fury rolls.Wait, but that's the best way to win a game!

You can't talk about the open/close format without linking to the type of game that is being played. For a tournament I would 100% endorse open-logged decks just to reduce the chances of cheating (swapping units depending on the faction you are playing against).
For casuals, I like open for the reasons stated above AND because if not it just gives and advantage to the one that has done some deck building. Right now, for me, there are too many factions and too many Match-Ups so it's common to just use what comes in the deck to figure out stuff while playing. Open decks mitigate that advantage (since we both know what's in deck, not just the one who is not playing out-of-the-box deck).
With MU I am familiar with I would be much happier with a undisclosed deck.

[Jexik]

That's kind of a neat idea, SAUAM. To have open and closed formats. Maybe have one event of each at GenCon and see what people gravitate to.

[WOOKIE]

This thread started with how certain Mercs did very well in certain factions. With the new decks & reinforcements out, new combos are being found.

Bounder- The best at surprise placement. Hulgorad also has 3 move but can't Leap over units. Bounders would be great with GD's Heroic Feat.

Demon Hand- Their 3 life combo well with VG's Greater Healing, Divine Strength & Healing. Why do evil units like Malevolence & Demon Hand work so well with the ultimate good faction?

Stone Golem- Their 3 life also combo well VG's healing.
A sturdy unit for the Benders. Use Telekinetic Blast to move them like gates. Could a Golem move 1 space, attack & later get moved with T. Blast?

Apprentice Mage- Everywhere! :D
Seriously though, they would do well with Swamp Orcs since you want cheep fodder for vine walls.

Mundol & 5 mages- Decks with A Hero is Born. BD, GD, PE, TO, VG, & even JE(Salvation). A mini team within a faction.

The Seer- A cheep champ with card control. The Filth & FK would benifit from control & certain ones in discard.



11/30/11 This talk about mercenaries not having 0 costers or ranged units through Reinforcement is just plain weird. I mean, ain't the deck-building all about surprises?

[thenightsshadow]

This thread started with how certain Mercs did very well in certain factions. With the new decks & reinforcements out, new combos are being found.

Bounder- The best at surprise placement. Hulgorad also has 3 move but can't Leap over units. Bounders would be great with GD's Heroic Feat.

Also good in the JE with assassin-type strats. Chant of Haste them into a leapable position.


Demon Hand- Their 3 life combo well with VG's Greater Healing, Divine Strength & Healing. Why do evil units like Malevolence & Demon Hand work so well with the ultimate good faction?

Eh, Sera usually wants every single bit of life she has. I don't know if 6 life is high enough to afford losing a few to Demon Hand destruction.


Stone Golem- Their 3 life also combo well VG's healing.
A sturdy unit for the Benders. Use Telekinetic Blast to move them like gates. Could a Golem move 1 space, attack & later get moved with T. Blast?

Yes, it can.


Apprentice Mage- Everywhere! :D
Seriously though, they would do well with Swamp Orcs since you want cheep fodder for vine walls.

Don't forget with Deep Dwarves for literally free 1 Ranged Attack (WTFG) or 2 Melee, and boosted even more with Mundol.


Mundol & 5 mages- Decks with A Hero is Born. BD, GD, PE, TO, VG, & even JE(Salvation). A mini team within a faction.

Not just those, but any deck that churns through the deck fast, like exhausting the deck in 8 or less turns.


The Seer- A cheep champ with card control. The Filth & FK would benifit from control & certain ones in discard.

Agreed, but you have to prepare to use it.

[sitnam90]

Out of the new guys, I'm really big on Hulgorad. He is amazing for Cloaks, as combines well with gunner and scrapper strikes. I really wanna try Rygos with Benders, since Clean Shot can be used right after a controller moves an unit away

[killercactus]

I LOVE Rune Mages. Right now, DD is the deck that really intrigues me with them. Sprog moving walls into spots where they can Siphon forever is just sick, they help fuel all those abilities that cost magic, and you can do it on the same turn as Meditate without giving up your attack. A few Scholara can help out as cheap, sturdy blockers to keep guys off of them. Illusionary Warrior, Mage Push, and SS + Wall can all put a Rune Mage into a spot where they can Siphon right away, too. I just love the deck.

[Anoir]

I run Holgorad and sairook in my filth deck